Limited design space of OTC - flaws and 1 vs 1

Design space. This is something that could potentially mean a lot of things. Here I define design space in the same way it would be defined in card games: The idea that there's only so much you’re allowed to put into a game, to do with it, before it conflicts with something already in the game fundamentally breaking it. For example, creating a card that is so powerful when combined with something else that it wins you the game immediately. At that point, the game is no longer fun, or balanced. Indeed, balance is always at the forefront when discussing design space. I am worried that with some of the design decisions the design space for this game is too small, the potential too low, to prevent issues that will crop up in the future.

 

I am going to say this, and a lot of people are probably going to think I’m a jerk for saying it, but offworld trading company is not a hard game. The skill ceiling for this game is low, it’s just that most people in the community haven’t hit that point yet, indeed perhaps none of us have yet. But it’s up there, and we’re closing in on it, perhaps not for larger games, but certainly for 1vs1.  Why does this exist?  Many factors. For starters, randomness affects this game heavily. Whilst this isn’t a bad thing, it’s arguable that it’s too much. The found is everything, a bad found and you lose. As we as a community get better, the difference between a good found and a mediocre one will get more and more noticeable. What’s worse is that said found is often the result of the scanning phase, something that can cause a lot of grief. As many of us saw in my first match against pbhead today, a mediocre found just cannot beat a good one provided both players are beyond a certain level of skill. If there exists a situation where adding more skill does not change the outcome of the match, then for that particular match you have hit the skill ceiling.

 

This idea of the found-trumps-all exists for another insidious reason, the lack of counter play. Counter play is the idea of understanding your opponents strategy, and countering it, either before the strategy occurs (such as stealing water away from a scientific) or afterwards. It’s interactive; it allows 2 players to match their brains against each other. Without it, you might as well be playing solitaire. The current counter play options are not sufficient. A player on the worse found has only 3 real ways to make a comeback. The first and most obvious one is to outplay your opponent, be faster than your opponent to the profitable markets and make the correct choices. This is skilful play, which we can ignore when assuming 2 people are skilled enough that it doesn’t matter. The second, randomness once again. A random shortage or surplus can make or break the game. It is required to make the game dynamic, but it is a possibility that you can have the resource you produce short constantly whilst your opponent cannot do so. Finally, the black market. This is I assume what everyone thinks of when they think about comeback mechanics in this game. The idea that the black market becomes more effective the more tiles a player is using all next to each other allows for some strong comeback potential, however it is a double edged sword. The black market costs more for the player behind than it does for the player ahead in terms of time, because the person ahead is generating more money per second. It is still difficult to say whether or not the black market helps the loser more than the winner onworld , but it is a strong balancing mechanic for preventing offworld snowballing.

 

This leads to my true complaint, the meat of it all: these comeback mechanics have no design space. This is because the scavenger HQ’s and the scientific HQ’s interact with the black market directly, and scavenger interacts with the shortage system. A scientific player can almost completely ignore a black market because of their bonuses, and a scavenger player gets to use so much more of it that it no longer becomes a comeback mechanic for them, but a mechanic designed to lock their opponent out of the game and keep getting ahead. Ontop of that, the scavenger can see shortages and surpluses in advance, heavily reducing the effectiveness of these against a scavenger player. They will always profit from a shortage, provided they are sufficiently skilled, no matter what that shortage is. This lessens the comeback potential of anyone not a scavenger. These 2 HQ’s are balanced around the comeback mechanics themselves. They prevent comebacks, and that’s why they are so popular in the current meta, and why the comeback mechanics have restricted design space. If you decide there needs to be a new black market effect, a new way of coming back into the game, you buff them because they are highly resistant to these effects. All you do is provide these 2 HQ’s with yet more comeback mechanics to use against an expansive or robotic player. We are so limited in what we can change to improve the game because of that. Therefore we cannot have truly effective comeback mechanics. Our design space is limited.

 

The solution I propose for this is not a pretty one, but I believe it to be necessary. In beta patch 3 scientific currently reign supreme as they have been heavily buffed due to price changes. Unwrap those from the comeback mechanics. Prevent them from limiting the design space. Remove their black market resistance. You must also do the same with scavenger. Perhaps their shortage/surplus bonus can stay for the time being whilst they undergo rebalance, but the final objective should be to remove both their black market bonus as well as shortage bonus. Once these 2 HQ’s are no longer immune to comeback mechanics, the game skill ceiling will rise. How so? Well, by adding more ways in which the player can get back into the game, more variables a player has to account and plan for. Currently, a scientific player doesn’t have to plan around anything except for the dreaded mutiny/dynamite, and the mutiny option is going away in beta patch 3. A scavenger player likewise can lock his opponent up with the black market, preventing him from moving into to it to disrupt the scavenger. And if they do? Well, a scavenger can hit that person back twice as hard, with 2 effects, before he can be hit again. They will thus always win a black market fight, so the only winning move is to not use it on them, unless you’re scientific.

Not only that, but scientific have a resistance to black market, thus all black market effects need to be things scientific can be resistant to. Again, limiting design space. Here are some black market effects that could be introduced, that could not if you had to balance them around scientific being resistant:

 

Bulldoze – Removes all resource deposits in unclaimed tiles in a hex around the selected spot. This would be the equivalent of spending your own claims to prevent your opponent form using those good tiles that you just know he’s going to claim as soon as he upgrades. A strong counter play that can be done from both ahead and behind.

 

Reactor overload – An effect somewhat similar to a power surge, except it prevents the buildings from turning off and auto-supply is turned on. You know your opponent has over-produced on some resources and the market will soon crash? Keep him locked into his decision. Burn his money with his own buildings.

 

Inefficient circuits – Taken from the same vein as reactor overload, this doubles a buildings power consumption for a longer period of time than power surge would disable it, and prevent scrapping. This can improve power plays of your own and increase your opponent debt. Similarly, your opponent can decide to turn off the buildings and not take that debt, but then he has tiles doing nothing, effectively making it stronger than a power surge.

 

Weak engines – An EMP style radius that causes all blimps coming from a building to have half the speed they normally would. They burn more fuel because they’re up there longer, and they delay the opponent’s resource gathering. He can turn off the building if he wants, or he can ride through it, the duration won’t be too long because like an EMP it only works for a short amount of time. Still, that can further delay and punish a person who just transitioned into something far from his base.

 

Black hat – Surpluses and shorts a random resource. It changes up the market, making your opponents transitions potentially unviable, and most probably not the best option. Has a good chance of working against you, as the natural counter play is to just be in more resources, but it helps work against a situation where you just know your opponent has better tiles than you because they have food production and it’s the only thing on the market that’s worth making right now.

 

These are just some suggestions, but they could not be implemented with how limited the current design space is. Before any mechanics such as these can be added, everyone has to be set to an equal playing field. Comeback mechanics should be something that exists, a real possibility that needs to be accounted for, and not something that can be ignored in nearly every match played.

52,343 views 26 replies
Reply #1 Top

I think what you said makes quite a bit of sense. I agree that scientific seems to reign supreme, I'm not sure about scav though because they are at least also vulnerable to the BM and their BM trait isn't free unlike scientific.

Reply #2 Top

Indeed, scavenger is the lesser of the 2 evils, but they are still safer than the other 2 factions. Not just because of the BM traits, but also because of their advance warnings on the shortage/surpluses. A scavenger player can almost never be screwed over by them, and indeed will almost always make a large profit off of them. So long as that trait exists, we cannot have more shortage/surplus style systems, such as that black hat effects I mentioned. Again, it jsut limits design space.

 

But yeah, not nearly as bad as scientific.

Reply #3 Top

Thanks for the thoughtful post. We planned to do Early Acces for so long so that we could do balancing changes if necessary to keep the game healthy. One option I've been considering is taking away the scientific BM bonus and replacing it with faster ships, which means they would have some immunity to pirates and flexibility to put buildings farther from their base.

I would also like to consider more BM options and then selecting 5 of them from "the deck" each game to add more variety to the game. Thus, I'd definitely like suggestions for need BM options BUT they need to be simple, easily explainable to non-experts. Some of these options (like Reactor Overload) would be a little hard for new players to grasp and also not quite obvious enough. (All of the current BM options have pretty obvious effects on the game.) Weak engines is an interesting idea, but I might adjust it so that it knocks down all blimps in a (large) radius.

Reply #4 Top

Thanks for the response. I cannot express enough the idea of counterplay being important, the driving force behind a game of strategy such as this one, and it's no suprise that the best factions are the ones who are most resistant to counterplay.

 

If youare planning on swapping the black market bonus out for something else, which I obviously agree heavily with, then it's probably a good diea to first remove the BM bonus without adding anything new. Again, the more variables and complexities you add, the less design space you have left to work with. Ideally, a faction should be different but as simple as possible, with no extra things tacked onto it that could limit the design space. Ofcourse, you probably already know this, i'm effectively just talking outloud here :P

 

And the black market suggestions were not necissarily thhings to take seriously, merely things designed to tantalise the mind, showing potential that just cannot be there whilst the scavenger and scientific have their counter-play resistance :P

Reply #5 Top

I agree with a lot of this. Once you're behind in a 1v1 catchup is a matter of luck for the most part since as players get better they will make fewer mistakes, so getting the best start is going to be the most important factor. After playing/watching the 1v1 tournament, its clear that the person who is leading has a huge advantage since they can shut down the other player.

The player behind usually can't shut down the other player long enough to catch up because the leader will have more things that need to be shut down. The leader will move into the highest priced resource when they upgrade, but since they have an extra level of claims, they only temporarily get set back to even claims wise, but at the cost of $$ and the BM timer.

Have you played around with more black market items: lower costs with lesser effect/short timers? 120 seconds is a very long time in a game for buildings to be disabled over the course of a game. On the other hand, its sometimes also hard to use that duration to do anything productive in certain markets. What about having the BM items on their own timers?Something to promote more interaction between the players that isn't just... "damn I guess i get to wait while they catch up/get ahead"

I do like the idea of playing around with ship speeds as a bonus. 

Reply #6 Top

Beta 3 is interesting and an improvement, but the increase in Steel cost has narrowed the viable starting strats and imo pushed alot of ppl into Scientific, if you not going Scav.  The 3 Scientific steel mills are too appealing when compared to the alternative Expansive or Robotic play, if you can;t lock up 2 high Alloys then your really struggling to get HQ2 in good time and subsequently your behind in the good claims race.

 

Glass is required for upgrades, but in many game I see players buying all upgrade glass and not moving into production till late game, this doesn't seem to quite right, I think there could be tweak made.  The seems to be huge spam of Reactors or farms, it would be good to bring glass into the mix a bit earlier.  Perhaps its more a play-style thing.

Offworld Pricing, why is it only Food, Oxy, and Fuel that are ever worth anything?  I guess it must be some balance thing.

Thinking Machines + Scientific is wildly overpowered, carbon scrubbing is fast becoming the new Nanotech.

 

I've saved the most important for last HOST MIGRATION SUCKS AGAIN.   2 out of 3 games crashed this morning because of it.

 

oh and Robotic needs some buffing, more rather than less!

 

Reply #7 Top

Maybe these are some half-decent BM ideas:

Meteor storm - Blimps passing through area with a 3 hex radius of the target hex have a 50% chance of crashing, lasting for 1-2m.
Reduced Worktime - All of targeted players facilities produce and consume 25% less (power consumption stays the same) for 2m.

I'm a little dry for other ideas.

In general i'd like more company-wide bm that has a relatively mild effect but a significant effect nevertheless. Buying these BM options possibly could make the BM timer tick off twice as slow until the next time and be 2x as expensive.

Reply #8 Top

Personally, I'd like to see the hacker array type effect be a BM effect rather than a special building.

What about ideas that affect all buildings of a given type (no matter who owns them)?  For example, Bad Seed could reduce all farm output for a short period.  Or you could have that target a specific player.

Reply #9 Top

I'm writing this more as an avid spectator than as a player (unfortunately, my laptop can't quite handle the game), so take my comments with some salt.

I think the point about counterplay is a good one and the Scavenger and Scientific powers are probably a contributor to the lack of it, but I'd like to point out something else: Black Market pricing. The way Black Market prices work right now limits their potential as a catch-up mechanic since the player in the lead will almost always have the most cash and therefore have better Black Market access. I propose three potential solutions to this. One, Black Market pricing could be unique to each player, thereby keeping it cheap for those players who have used less of it. That would work fairly well, but disconnects the players from each other and means that the usefulness of sabotage effects as a catch-up tool would taper off pretty quickly. Another option would be to keep Black Market prices communal in general, but add a modifier for each player based on HQ level. Players further ahead would have to pay more for sabotage, making it easier for those in the back to bring them down. Similarly, you could make the Black Market timer increase for each HQ level, having a similar effect.

Also, I think it should be kept in mind that this seems to mostly be a problem in 1v1, where there's no "screw the leader" option. The game seems to be mainly balanced around 4 player free-for-all and I think that's for the best.

That said, here are some of my ideas for Black Market effects. So far, all the sabotage has been map-based. My ideas bring the market a bit more into play.

Bad Debt: Straightforward: just adds debt onto the target player, as interest on their current debt, just like the current interest system.

Lockout: Prevents a player from selling any resources for a given period of time. They still produce and can still buy, but selling is off-limits. That allows other players to get in on their markets and crash them before the target has a chance to react.

Blackout: A similar effect, but slightly opposite. Hides all prices and cash savings from the target for a given period. They can see what resources they have, they can buy and sell, but they can't see how much money they've got or what the prices is on anything. Again, allows other players to screw with prices without their enemy knowing.

Switcheroo: Pick one type of production building. That buildings inputs and outputs are switched for a given period of time for one opponent. So, their Steel Mills consume Steel and produce Iron. Obviously, it doesn't work for primary buildings like Water Pumps. But it's a bit of a fun effect to screw around with people and could potentially cost them a lot of money.

Reply #10 Top

Supply Defect: production output suffers 50% loss rate due to defects for a given time. (basically 50% less efficiency for the given time). Let's the person being sabotaged decide whether its worth continuing the operation.

Theft/Sabotage: Steal/destroy 25%-50% of a players stockpile of a given resource.This could be a good way to counter hacker play.

Communications failure: Blimps have a 25% chance to be lost/25% chance to go to the wrong player for a short duration.

Worker Bonus: Output increased for a short duration.

Reply #11 Top

I have a sort of crazy idea to possibly get rid of the "founding location is everything problem.


All companies must found their HQs within X hexes of the Colony.  

Everyone will be center, have no founding bonus in resources, now founding means almost nothing except fitting your hq in and the extra 10 or so Hexes when you are on the other side of the colony from a resource hex. Things would have to change like pirates would need to be kept away from the colony etc. Could lead to more interesting problems like interweaving of buildings around the colony etc making it tougher or easier to use power surges etc.

 

Reply #13 Top

I do agree with most of this as well and I would also love to see BM effects chosen from a larger pool of random ones (maybe as a game mode for now though to make it easier for new players).

And since this turned into new BM effects discussion and in light of the new patent discussion, how about something like freezing the effects of all active patents for 30-60 seconds (for all the players or maybe an individual if you target the HQ. If you misclick on this one though...)

Reply #14 Top

I just joined this forum after seeing duelking2000 post on reddit. 

 

I think there are 3 separate issues that shouldn't be mixed together:

- Better play can't beat good found

I think there is no need to jump into conclusion that game lacks in counter play based on the fact that better player can't beat worse in certain found situation. Majority of competitive games that i played have symmetrical maps (Dota 2, LoL, Starcraft 2). In games where one player has position advantage there are certain rules in tournament format that try to even this out. Situation where starting location is left to luck is terrible terrible idea for any competitive 1v1 game. For example in chess white have starting advantage so there are more matches played between players and they change sides. In board game Go player to move second gets 6,5 point komi to even things out. The problem is that it will be difficult to implement such system in OTC when second player to settle gets more money because it is difficult to guesstimate how much of the advantage player with better found actually have. So why not let players decide ? This is after all economic game so players should be able to gauge how much advantage settling in better location provide. System that i propose:

Map is fully explored from the beginning 

Players get some fixed amount of time to judge the situation

Auction starts

Player who win auction gets to settle first 

Second player settles second and get one free claim

This way players can decide themselves what is the advantage of settling first on a given map and reach equilibrium in price by betting in auction. Player that can understand map better would get starting advantage if he can bet smarter. If both players agree to valuation of settling first in a given map non would get any advantage because price in auction would approach this point. I think that this is very elegant solution and auction system is already heavily used in game.

- Difficulty of providing counter play options in economic game

In OTC rich usually get richer because he can invest more. But because his investments are visible, the other player can see what strategy is he committing to and try to counter it. There should be mechanics implemented to make this possible but first and most important is balancing the found. Only than creators can decide if there aren't enough counter play options already.

- Not enough strategic depth

It can only be decided if it is even true after first two issues are dealt with. If anything new is added it should be clean and simple yet adding depth.

Reply #15 Top

Your proposal for the founding idea has been mostly implemented in the new beta patch that came out last week. I created this post after using that system, because I believe it doesn't address my primary concerns, the lack of being able to make improvements to the game because of the lack of design space. We will have difficulty adding more strategic depth using current mechanics because of this lack of design space, and as you seem to suggest yourself you also are not a fan of adding new mecanics.

 

I highly suggest you try out the new beta patch with reveal map on.

Reply #16 Top

The new founding option with the map revealed is a huge improvement for competitive play.

Reply #17 Top

I agree with indczn.

I dont agree with are random shorts/surplusses. They can make or break a game all on their own and you can't easily respond to them especially in 1v1 where it can not be balanced out with teaming up against the leading player and where you are almost quaranteed to know whether or not your opponents has stockpiles of a resource.

Reply #18 Top

Cubit32, I agree and said as much after last tournament. From a competitive standpoint, the random events need to go. Particularly the random shipments/claims/shortages & surpluses. They are ok in a large FFA, but not for 1v1. The game outcome shouldn't be dictated by random events which don't evenly effect the players.

Reply #19 Top

random shipments/claims have been single-player-only since Beta 2, btw.

Reply #20 Top

Quoting Soren_Johnson, reply 19

random shipments/claims have been single-player-only since Beta 2, btw.
End of Soren_Johnson's quote

How certain are you of that? I'm pretty sure i've been given free claims a couple of times in beta 3 at least, it just doesnt show the text message when I do. Saber claims to have recieved shipments before, and when I was on skype with strkernostriking she claimed to randomly get 60 glass out of no where.

 

All of these on 6 player games. I thought it was intentional, so I never reported it :P

Perhaps these things 'leaked' into multiplayer just like I think the colony changes did in our matches? Or did you conclude that I'm just imagining that stuff afterall? I was pretty bad at my timings and stuff today :P

Reply #21 Top

I'm pretty sure it is out, but please link a video if anyone sees them.

Reply #22 Top

Pretty sure I've seen random claims and free resources in beta 3.

 

Also power prices are different in Beta 3, the price increases quicker and to a higher point than beta2, if it is not an intentional change then there is some leakage or mechanic affecting it, but it has definitely changed in beta 3.

 

 

Reply #23 Top

I really like the new reveal map mode, and I think it makes the early game much more about risk vs reward rather than fingers crossed you reveal a good spot. Honestly wouldn't mind it being default. 

Reply #24 Top

What could work is (and I think I heard this idea from someone else before, not sure) adjusting the impact that a shortage or a surplus can have on the resource price based on the amount of players. When the price of a resource I just moved into drops from 100$ to 50$ (in a 1v1 setting!) that is hardly fair. I don't mind the random shortages and surpluses, I think they're a nice thing, IF they can give a slight advantage or a slight disadvantage to a player, but I don't think it should be that much of an impact. In an 8-man game it's likely to be less of an issue, because there is much more demand on the resource, so it would come back in price that much quicker than in a duel.

(I do have to say that in that game I managed to sell of 80 food during that surplus, so the effect the surplus had wasn't AS dramatic, but it doesn't change the point)