Is the custom unit design system really that good of an idea?

I'm beginning to wonder if the game is too complex for it's own good, even after the cutbacks from WoM. It seems like balancing is really difficult, with the dominant strategy thread pointing out that you can steamroll the game with just the very basic of units. To me, the whole unit design system, just like city building tile placement, is an added layer of complexity that really doesn't give that much back.

Just like caravans and city tile placement, the unit design system seems to me like something ported from GalCiv without any thinking into if it actually contributes to the game or not. If the game is finally well balanced at some point, then maybe it's not that big of an issue, but currently it just makes the game more difficult to understand and makes balancing the game that much more difficult.

36,353 views 34 replies
Reply #1 Top

Imho, the unit designer is what makes this game worth playing. It is, in its way, a unique game mechanic.

Reply #2 Top

Custom unit design is great and one of the features I really love. And yes it makes balancing more difficult but that isn't a big problem unless we get multiplayer. As for making it too complex, I don't really agree although I see your point. As long as the developers make some more premade unit designs you don't really need to use the custom design until you feel you know what you are doing.

 

Reply #3 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 1
Imho, the unit designer is what makes this game worth playing. It is, in its way, a unique game mechanic.

This.  Unlike WoM, I believe FE will be able to balance out unit construction so making units is fun, and already is for me.  Complexity shouldn't be a huge issue for a TBS game.  These are nerd games and are not going to gain a great deal by being less complex as the cost of losing features.

Reply #4 Top

As long as unit design can be relatively balanced for the early and mid game ... I do not see it as a problem.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 1
Imho, the unit designer is what makes this game worth playing. It is, in its way, a unique game mechanic.

 

Agree.

Reply #6 Top

Ok. Then let's just hope the balance is eventually gotten right.

Reply #7 Top

I am the kind of person that would rather have fun unique and balanced non-custom units then what we have now.

Other then making balance hard current system makes faction not that different as well. If custom units are going to stay (and this late in beta they will 99%) I would like to see faction only traits for units. And when you design your own faction you can choose only one of these faction only traits (or one group if there are more per faction). 

Reply #8 Top
If you don't like the unit design, you don't have to use it. The AI doesn't, so you'll be on equal footing.
Reply #9 Top

I still think factions should have at least one piece of equipment that is stronger than all other equivalents :X

 

Whether absurdly cheaper, a bit buffed, a bit higher initiative ... something.

So that different Factions can have truly unique "unique units"

 

Also, I feel the economies of factions should be able to behave differently ... maybe unique national wonders galore for certain factions

-> some factions heavily inclined for vertical growth, others with neutral inclination/do fine with city spam as it is currently

Reply #10 Top

There are many imbalanced things out there, including in the Sovereign creation screen. They only need more twaks in what they actually do and what they actually cost. And for that, time and players reporting stuff.

You can stick to use default templates and you should be fine but I love to create my own designs much like I do in GalCiv II.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Vallu751, reply 8
If you don't like the unit design, you don't have to use it. The AI doesn't, so you'll be on equal footing.

That is flawed logic. Of course if I got an option to have better units I am going to use it. But I don't want to. I want my faction to have better units in one area but worse in another. I want my pioneers to get horses without me needing to make custom units.

And AI is going to be using custom units sooner or later or it will never be a real challenge to what players do. And from what I understand Brad wants them to be a challenge.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 9
I still think factions should have at least one piece of equipment that is stronger than all other equivalents

 

Whether absurdly cheaper, a bit buffed, a bit higher initiative ... something.

So that different Factions can have truly unique "unique units"

 

Also, I feel the economies of factions should be able to behave differently ... maybe unique national wonders galore for certain factions

-> some factions heavily inclined for vertical growth, others with neutral inclination/do fine with city spam as it is currently

I think unique units make for crappy faction differentiation though.  Look at Civ4 or Civ5.  The unique units there, while interesting and powerful in the period you had them, did little to make the factions different.  

You differentiate the factions through visuals and through play style.  Each faction/race trait combo should give factions drastic strengths and weaknesses.  The AI needs to understand those and play to strengths.  Whenever you see Yithril, you should recognize them instantly and know that you're in for a low magic, high muscle aggressive confrontation.  If you play Yithril their traits should make it difficult for you to seek victory in ways other than conquest.  Not that it shouldn't be possible, but they're predisposed a certain way.  Instead of unique units or unique items Yithril's inherent traits should make the military might play style much more plausible.  Then they become the Napoleon of Elemental.  Whenever you run into them you know what they're about.  You associate military might and aggressive behavior with Yithril and there you have it. A  differentiated faction.  

 

Reply #14 Top

My interest in playing elemental plummets without the custom unit design. It's where they've hung their hats, at the expense of other things. It's what makes Elemental unique.

 

You may scoff, but balance in primarily single player games is overrated. I can't think of a single SP rpg or strategy game worth a damn that has ever been completely balanced out of the box. There were always some imbalanced units or strategies, and discovering them let you feel clever, which provided an appeal of its own. It was part of the character of the game. We may appreciate game balance, and decry the lack of it, but we don't fall in love with games because of it.  At least I don't. 

I'm certainly not saying that balance isn't important, shouldn't be striven for, and that FE in particular doesn't need a crap ton of work in this area. Faction differentiation, unit balance, the army system are all areas that need serious attention. But in my opinion, like we see in Crusader Kings 2, the best Strategy games are games that let us generate unique personal stories. Starcraft is an almost perfectly balanced game, with three completely different factions. But they aren't *my* factions.That game does not scratch the same itch that FE does. 

 

I want to play the game that let's me attach a magic ring to a unit to give them a fire attack, but because of the financial situation in the kingdom, make them go without boots to recoup the cost, and name that brigade the "Firewalkers". Obviously, I also want there to be gameplay-enforced pros and cons to doing so. Even sandbox games need functioning rules.  I want to be able to make *strategic* decisions about outfitting a troop with one less piece of equipment, because doing so will let me build it in 4 turns, instead of 5, which will have an impact in the current situation, and yet still have it be strong enough to deal with an incoming threat, which a dev-designed unit may not be. I want to be able to make *strategic* decisions about how to optimize the resources I have, for each given situation. But mostly, I want to be able to envision my own unit concepts, because there's a creative appeal to doing so,

 

The ability to fine tune your units for any given situation, and make them part of a story that *you* author has a distinct value all its own. Not for everyone, of course, but no game is for everyone. Not everyone cares about generating their own stories, and there are plenty of games that don't do that (and yet are still not perfectly balanced). 

If you sanded off the  parts that make elemental distinct, you end up with a poor man's HOMM. Not interested. I'm barely interested in HOMM, as I find the games too shallow to sustain repeat play. In my opinion, they have little choice but to make sure the unit design and story authoring elements function well, or there's really no reason for the game at all.

Reply #15 Top

Custom unit design is one of those things I thought, back in the days of WOM, that can make this franchise ultimately more appealing than MoM. And I still think that. It gives me a lot more personal approach to playing, not unlike designing my Sovereign (who I actually think should be more differentiated from mundane champions than at the moment, btw). It gives me a ton of options. And a ton more fun, when I can counter the brutal AI strategy with finesse in unit design for specific roles and execution (pun intended). :D

Reply #16 Top
TorinReborn, I wasn't answering to your message. You ninja'd me by a few seconds. I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying.
Reply #17 Top

I just wish you could put tunics over armour. That way, I can flair my units up and make "Army of the west" and "Army of the east". That would really help for the roleplaying side for me. And it's something you see on knights in movies and stuff. :)

Reply #18 Top

I find custom unit design in any game annoying, and frankly just another thing to do that detracts from playing the normal game. I'm playing a strategy game, and find the detail too tedious. The game should make the best units automatically for both me and the AI. Then there's no imbalance. I like building a civilization from the ground up, researching technology, and building cities, and I'd prefer to do that rather than spend hours in the unit editor. Having to customize units to such detail was one of the few things I disliked about GalCiv.

Make unit customization a disable-able feature. If the AI can't do it, why should I be able to?

Reply #19 Top

One interesting element that I think few realize is that each faction does have different units, in that each faction has different base stats.  The Yithril have higher STR base and lower INT.  That makes their units deal more damage, but learn slower and less magic resist.  It's just not obvious at all until you are already in the game.

Reply #20 Top

Quoting Beric01, reply 18


Make unit customization a disable-able feature.

 

Why should something that's completely voluntary be "disable-able"?

Reply #21 Top

Quoting Bingjack, reply 20

Quoting Beric01, reply 18

Make unit customization a disable-able feature.

 

Why should something that's completely voluntary be "disable-able"?

 

Because there's almost an obligation to use it, and it's then assumed the AI uses it as well.

Reply #22 Top

While I love a great restaurant, with a solid menu, sometimes you just want a buffet.

Please don't encourage them to take away our buffet.

Reply #23 Top

Quoting Rhadagast, reply 22
While I love a great restaurant, with a solid menu, sometimes you just want a buffet.

Please don't encourage them to take away our buffet.

 

The problems with AI coding and offering this feature take resources away from further improving the tech and building trees. These need to be improved first.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting Beric01, reply 21

Quoting Bingjack, reply 20
Quoting Beric01, reply 18

Make unit customization a disable-able feature.

 

Why should something that's completely voluntary be "disable-able"?

 

Because there's almost an obligation to use it, and it's then assumed the AI uses it as well.

 

Yeah, I don't buy this. There's no way  a completely optional feature that you claim you don't like, and don't want to use, can intrude on your game unless you want it to.

 

If there's an obligation to use it, how is ticking a checkbox going to stop you from doing it? If you really dont have the self control not to push a certain button that you claim you dislike, and makes your game less fun, this is a rather odd discipline issue on your part, not on the game's part.

It just sounds like a passive aggressive dig at a feature you don't like.  Which is fine, everyone can have their own opinion, and play the game they way they like, but expecting development resources be put into a disable function for a feature that is only a part of your game if you want it to be, is a little silly.

 I suppose custom Sov creation should be disabled in game star menu as well?  Custom faction creation removed from the main menu?  You might not be able to resist pushing those buttons.

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Bingjack, reply 24

Quoting Beric01, reply 21
Quoting Bingjack, reply 20
Quoting Beric01, reply 18

Make unit customization a disable-able feature.

 

Why should something that's completely voluntary be "disable-able"?

 

Because there's almost an obligation to use it, and it's then assumed the AI uses it as well.

 

Yeah, I don't buy this. There's no way  a completely optional feature that you claim you don't like, and don't want to use, can intrude on your game unless you want it to.

 

If there's an obligation to use it, how is ticking a checkbox going to stop you from doing it? If you really dont have the self control not to push a certain button that you claim you dislike, and makes your game less fun, this is a rather odd discipline issue on your part, not on the game's part.

It just sounds like a passive aggressive dig at a feature you don't like.  Which is fine, everyone can have their own opinion, and play the game they way they like, but expecting development resources be put into disabling a feature that is only a part of your game if you want it to be is a little silly.

 

I suppose custom Sov creation should be disabled in game star menu as well?  Custom faction creation removed from the main menu?  You might not resist being able to push those buttons.

 

The AI cannot adequately use unit customization, nor will it be ever be able to, according to Brad. So why can't we have the same system the AI does? It's tedious to have to design some entirely new units just for that one more tech I just researched. Why can't I check a box and have it auto-generate the best designs, so I don't have to? The current system is tedium. If I research rings, I now have to go into the editor and modify the design for all future units. Why can't the game present me with the best option (or perhaps a couple trade-offs)?

 

Also, I have to love your ad-hominem attack and digs on me personally, versus on the game as a whole, or its userbase. Also your "logical extreme" argument. And this "optional" feature WILL intrude on my game. It's resources devoted to a system that will never work properly, and thus taken away from what truly needs work.

 

I support custom sovereign and faction creation, though it's currently a hassle and needs to be streamlined. That's one-time customization that lasts a whole game. But having to constantly customize units to an extreme level of detail depending on the situation is not what I want to do in a strategy game.