Giving The Queen Of Thorns Some Love In 30 Minutes Or Less

Recently Frogboy expressed a desire to have GPG "show the queen some love" in a future update and I'm starting this thread to share my ideas on making Queen a viable choice in higher level games. 

I would love to hear any criticism of my ideas that you have or you putting down your own suggestions of how to help balance the QoT, but please don't put down "Queen of Thorns is fine, I lost a game to a team with her the other night.  TB is the one who needs a buff!"

If you are one of the 1% who actually believe QoT is a competitive Demigod in high level games, then thats ok... I don't judge you or anyone else who is addicted to crack cocaine, but I'm asking you respectfully to put your comments in another thread.

If you have your own helpful suggestions on how to buff her, then please put them down but keep in mind the title of this post.  Try to keep it to number changes and do-able tweaks.  Nothing is going to get "completely re-worked" and if you want to go on about replacing skill trees and such, please make your own post and title it "How Great the Queen Could Have Been If GPG Hadn't Started Designing Her 5 Days Before Demigod Launched"

My Ideas

Give Bramble Shield IV the ability to block enemy de-buffs and interrupts.  If a Demigod already had a Pentinence on him and you bramble shielded him, it will not remove the affect like higher level Heals and any Shield... but if the Bramble Shield was on then the enemy would have to counter by targeting someone else, or doing enough damage to pop the shield before Penting, or just settling for the damage.  This would be good because B Shield doesn't scale well late game and Queen doesn't fare well in the flag lock wars because she has no interrupts herself.  This way Queen could help out in portal capping by shielding herself or allies who are TPing or flag locking.  It might seem overpowered but you have to remember at this stage at the game popping a B Shield is pretty easy... its either a Hammer Slam IV or Mines IV or any burst damage ability + 1 auto attack... A lot easier to counter than Oak's Shield if you ask me.  I don't know if its workable since no other ability is exactly like this, but I think they could manage it with a minimum of effort.  If not, maybe just give it the ability to protect against interrupts like Oak's Shield does if that would be easier.

Give Uproot the ability to heal friendly towers.  The ability is not ever used and this would change that, and in theory it would make another useless skill line, Compost, possibly viable.  I believe this is workable since towers can heal naturally and are targetable by healing effects such as Universal Gadget.

Make Shamblers IV cost as much as Shamblers III.  Right now you're usually punishing yourself by taking the final skill point in this line because you're rarely going to need to summon 4 at a time so its usually a waste of mana since you'll kill off the one or two that are still alive.  Of course you can just make sure all your shamblers die before you summon more and fight at a disadvantage in the meantime... or you can do what everyone does and not screw yourself by taking the last skill point.  I think this should change.

Thanks for reading guys, and happy new year!

Edit 1/2/10 

-Putting a de-buff blocker on shield shows I am stupid, which I now realize.  Putting a interrupt/stun blocker on DGs who have a Bramble Shield I still believe is absolute genius on my part.

38,795 views 96 replies
Reply #1 Top

my idea

*give bots to qot

*shield III/IV Reflect some damage back onto attacker.

*Switch mulch and ground spikes place on qot skill tree.

* give close form a bit bigger aoe AA range

*fix her damage scaling

*double the number of shamblers she gets with each level

*Fix minion health item bug

*make entourage and tribute worth some crap.

*Make queen of thorns say "I love you synn." Every so often. XD

Reply #2 Top

Give Bramble Shield IV the ability to block enemy de-buffs and interrupts.

DO IT NAO

 

Give Uproot the ability to heal friendly towers.

This would be useful, and help establish the QoT as a support character

Reply #3 Top

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 2
Give Bramble Shield IV the ability to block enemy de-buffs and interrupts.

DO IT NAO

End of Splitshadow's quote

 

Oh this would be balanced. A lvl 3 Oak Shield that you can put on the whole team, that doesn't wear out. If we have this nobody have to die, ever. That would be fun wouldn't it?

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Esuzu, reply 3

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 2Give Bramble Shield IV the ability to block enemy de-buffs and interrupts.

DO IT NAO


 

Oh this would be balanced. A lvl 3 Oak Shield that you can put on the whole team, that doesn't wear out. If we have this nobody have to die, ever. That would be fun wouldn't it?
End of Esuzu's quote

PEople already don't use qot, just do it but don't let anyone know; that'll be pretty fair.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting synnworld, reply 4

Quoting Esuzu, reply 3
Quoting Splitshadow, reply 2Give Bramble Shield IV the ability to block enemy de-buffs and interrupts.

DO IT NAO


 

Oh this would be balanced. A lvl 3 Oak Shield that you can put on the whole team, that doesn't wear out. If we have this nobody have to die, ever. That would be fun wouldn't it?
PEople already don't use qot, just do it but don't let anyone know; that'll be pretty fair.
End of synnworld's quote

Hm? Sorry, could you rephrase that? I can't see your point.

Reply #6 Top

NO.NO NO NO NO

 

QUEEN IS FINE. She is atleast as good as sedna and rook if not better. She needs only minor stat buffs and on or two skill changes/buffs. However, right now she is competetive. People just totally misplay her.

 

And because noone believes me. Play me with my premade, or any top player and I'll show how good queen is.

 

P.S. Double shamblers? Are you nuts? They're already one of the best minions as of now.

Reply #7 Top

Post a replay.

Reply #8 Top

I think I've played with your QoT before and she's certainly no Rook. It's a medicore character, but even so preventing debuffs on shield would be ridiculously tedious and overpowered. How would UB ever get through a shield with just ooze and autoattack, how would Oak or Sedna ever interrupt when they need their interrupts as damage to break the shield in the first place?

Reply #9 Top

Oh this would be balanced. A lvl 3 Oak Shield that you can put on the whole team, that doesn't wear out. If we have this nobody have to die, ever. That would be fun wouldn't it?

 

It's unfair that oak gets to chain lock because he is totally invincible for the duration of his shield, whereas a hammer slam would nuke the queen's shield, and a boulder roll would interrupt the lock. Where are you getting that bramble shield doesn't run out? It's pathetically weak in the late game. Also, no one should be dying anyway, what with sigils, stuns, interrupts, and teleports.

Reply #10 Top

I'm really looking forward to see how GPG/SD changes QoT with all the input avail.

Reply #11 Top

I'm really looking forward to see how GPG/SD changes QoT with all the input avail.

 

She's going to get an interrupt, three or four insignificant buffs, then some weird nerf that will make everyone wtfbbq and probably not solve many problems.

Reply #12 Top

It's unfair that oak gets to chain lock because he is totally invincible for the duration of his shield, whereas a hammer slam would nuke the queen's shield, and a boulder roll would interrupt the lock. Where are you getting that bramble shield doesn't run out? It's pathetically weak in the late game.
End of quote
Oh good, one character, Rook, can interrupt QoT with max rank hammer slam, assuming, of course, that she is in melee range when she starts casting her lock/tp/whatever and she stays in melee range in spite of the fact that Rook can't use his stun to hold her there.

Also, no one should be dying anyway, what with sigils, stuns, interrupts, and teleports.
End of quote
You're joking, right?

 

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 11
I'm really looking forward to see how GPG/SD changes QoT with all the input avail.

 

She's going to get an interrupt, three or four insignificant buffs, then some weird nerf that will make everyone wtfbbq and probably not solve many problems.
End of Splitshadow's quote

I still have faith :D

And even if I didnt, It's all curiosity more then anything else :D

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 11
I'm really looking forward to see how GPG/SD changes QoT with all the input avail.

 

She's going to get an interrupt, three or four insignificant buffs, then some weird nerf that will make everyone wtfbbq and probably not solve many problems.
End of Splitshadow's quote
Quoting HorseStrangler, reply 12

It's unfair that oak gets to chain lock because he is totally invincible for the duration of his shield, whereas a hammer slam would nuke the queen's shield, and a boulder roll would interrupt the lock. Where are you getting that bramble shield doesn't run out? It's pathetically weak in the late game.Oh good, one character, Rook, can interrupt QoT with max rank hammer slam, assuming, of course, that she is in melee range when she starts casting her lock/tp/whatever and she stays in melee range in spite of the fact that Rook can't use his stun to hold her there.

Also, no one should be dying anyway, what with sigils, stuns, interrupts, and teleports.You're joking, right?
 
End of HorseStrangler's quote
Just about every character late game can eat through qot shield. I just want to see the shield hold up a bit more. It doesn't have to nulf all debuffs, but give it a bit more.

Reply #15 Top

Obs.

 

You haven't played my queen...(we played months ago, when queen wasen't buffed yet so these strats didnt work)

She beats rook fair and square. Aoe+ groundspikes> towers. Shield> hammer. 

 

I can show a replay but that would 1. That would betray my strat and 2  a replay is no proof for a winning strat,


So thats why I challenge anyone to play "my" queen.

Reply #16 Top

Obs- I mean HorseStrangler: Ok, protecting against de-buffs is way overpowered and stupid of me to put in now that I think about all the repercussions.  Howabout just stuns and interrupts though?  Queen has to have a way of contributing late game...

 

Lifekatana:  You're a better player than I am, but I've played the Queen more than you and I believe I know her weaknesses better.  Right now no one counters her properly because they usually don't feel the need to, they just wait for late game.  I'm sure you do just fine with high quality pre-made teamates playing high quality demigods to cover up for the QoT's weaknesses, but if you played some more public games you might feel differently after being raped by chain stuns.  I don't care what build you're using because I've tried every build imaginable, and you simply can't stay alive if you can't cast shield or mulch while being chain stunned.  Chain stuns are just incidental counters when using the Queen, god help you when you run into a good Sedna or Ice TB who know what Silence and Deep Freeze can do to you.  Pleas post a replay after you try using QoT against Irahi... I would LOVE to see it.

Reply #17 Top

Shield> hammer. 

 

You made mountain dew go up my nose.

 

Shield max level with ground spikes buff =  15% damage reduction and a shield of 1450 damage

Hammer slam / boulder roll combo = 2100 damage - 15% = 1785 damage, 335 over your shield.

Then, I can hit you with the combo again in 12 seconds, or hammer slam after 8 seconds.

Not to mention the huge differences in dps and health between the rook and the queen.

 

She's pretty good against a pure tower rook, but who does that anymore?

Reply #18 Top

What I meant was that shield mitigates a lot of hammer dmg, since it's all ability dmg. Also her monks and mulch easily make up for the health you lost from hammer. Obviously not in teamfights.

 

Oh I'm an avid Pub player and I totally understand that in a game with some random noobs queen is a bad choice. She really benefits from good teammates. What I'm to trying to tell everyone is that she is competetive when she actually does have good teammates, sure you're fighting with a slight handicap and your very squishy but not moreso than playing DA/TB/reg. In addition playing queen gives your team a lot of things that a straight full house doesnt have(pushing power armor redux on buildings). Playing against an Ice TB/sedna means that the other team got a suboptimal team so I won't go into that. I understand you're fear of chain stun, but I have but one question: what are you doing so close to so many stunners? You have the range, use it! How is queen worse against chain stuns than other chars?

 

Reply #19 Top

The queen of thorns is too weak as it is. She's the only character with no interrupt, her minions are terrible, and burst damage abilities eat through her shield late game (which is the only thing keeping her alive).  I too play only public games, but your point is basically that if you have really good players then the QoT isn't that bad. In truth, in the standard 3v3 cataract games, players of equal skill will lose if one side has the queen.

Reply #20 Top

Poor ol' Reg cant interrupt either.

Edit: Wait! I forgot. Yes he can! After 15, if your really stupid and waste a point, he has a 3% chance on attack! Woooooooo....

Reply #21 Top

I'm all about kiting with the Queen and do so very effectivley early on.  I use her early game advantages of superior mana/hp regen and ranged AOE attack to their fullest to wear down the enemy dgs and can usually be a nice asset to my team and still get curr for them.

However, later on once the other teams oak gets Pent IV to pop my shield and slow me down right when Erebus swarms in out of nowhere to bite and stun me... yes yes, stuns suck for everyone but IMO far more for the Queen with her naturally low armor and hp.  Monks heal her less, sigil gives her less health... the way she survives is her shield and sometimes mulch, and if whe gets stunned when needing to cast them she's screwed.

You can tank up TB and DA, and IMO some of the best builds for these two do just that, but trying this with Queen just don't seem to work out.  She needs mana and her abilities to survive and if you take either away she's in trouble where other DGs have a better chance of weathering the storm by just health stacking and sigiling.

I know she's fantastic at certain things and feel foolish with throwing in my shielding de-buffs in my suggestions.  I don't want her overpowered either... I play her cause its boring playing UB and LE.  I've won games playing Queen against great players with great players on my team... but we had the game in the bag early from a couple of lucky ganks where the opponents underestimated the danger of a bramble shielded UB/LE.  Most times when its close at the end, or even if we've got a slight lead, we will lose because I've crippled my team for the late game by picking QoT.  You know how everyone bitches about how overpowered a shielded Oak is cause you can't stun him or interrupt his TP?  Well, FFS you guys!  Every DG is a permanently shielded Oak when you play as QoT!

 

Reply #22 Top

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 17
Shield> hammer. 

 Shield max level with ground spikes buff =  15% damage reduction and a shield of 1450 damage

Hammer slam / boulder roll combo = 2100 damage - 15% = 1785 damage, 335 over your shield.
End of Splitshadow's quote

 

The shield absorption effect occurs before the damage reduction effect, so that's 650 damage over your shield, of which you take 552.5.

 

Quoting lifekatana, reply 15

 

I can show a replay but that would 1. That would betray my strat and 2  a replay is no proof for a winning strat,


So thats why I challenge anyone to play "my" queen.
End of lifekatana's quote

How is one game going to prove anything? Assuming that you have a revolutionary playstyle that no one has experienced, how many games do you think it would take before someone understood it well enough to develop a counter strategy? We've all seen the high skilled LE vs Qot 1v1 where the LE is completely outplayed by the Qot. The LE had no idea what was going on, but do you think it would have turned out the same way 10 games later?

Furthermore, you make it sound like you want to balance things out, but your responses aren't very helpful in trying to understand why you think the QoT has a strong build. You claim to have a secret build, but won't reveal it. Is your goal to keep a secret technique so you can win or to make the game more fun for others by making the QoT more competitive where she is weak?

Reply #23 Top

That is not my point. My point is that she benefits far more from teammates than other characters do(also Rook). For instance I would never play her with a squishie(reg/da/TB) or sedna, and only with a very very good rook. This is not only because she is vulnerable but also because she lacks straight dmg, instead she magnifies the dps of others. However a charcter like reg totally lacks straight damage so she is very bad in combination with him.

 

I think I need to kill another cliché, that queen is bad lategame. To the contrary, queen is one of the best lategame characters(huh what??). And this is all because of groundspikes, this allows you to do tremendous damage to other demigods when supported and it being an AOE also pretty much clears out all the minions in the area in combination with minion aoe. However her number one use is her ability to push buildings so hard. Indeed one of my prime strats is not foolishly try to cap portals, but instead make a middle push when we just got a kill and take the valor. With a wave or two of giants and/or catas supported by groundspikes the cit or defending towers can go down in under a minute. This danger makes her still very viable lategame since most picks dont have good AOE(noone take TB and ooze is good but lacks range and the almsot instant kill of spikes/RoI).

Also yes queen is vulnerable but again in comparison to TB/reg/DA she is simply a brick. Stacking hp with queen is of course important as is being able to retreat.Really you all don't believe me, play me.

 

P.S. That's a very good analogy with the permanent shielding Thunder :D .

Reply #24 Top

h
End of quote
Quoting Ptarth, reply 22

Quoting Splitshadow, reply 17Shield> hammer. 

 Shield max level with ground spikes buff =  15% damage reduction and a shield of 1450 damage

Hammer slam / boulder roll combo = 2100 damage - 15% = 1785 damage, 335 over your shield.

 

The shield absorption effect occurs before the damage reduction effect, so that's 650 damage over your shield, of which you take 552.5.

 


Quoting lifekatana, reply 15
 

I can show a replay but that would 1. That would betray my strat and 2  a replay is no proof for a winning strat,


So thats why I challenge anyone to play "my" queen.
How is one game going to prove anything? Assuming that you have a revolutionary playstyle that no one has experienced, how many games do you think it would take before someone understood it well enough to develop a counter strategy? We've all seen the high skilled LE vs Qot 1v1 where the LE is completely outplayed by the Qot. The LE had no idea what was going on, but do you think it would have turned out the same way 10 games later?

Furthermore, you make it sound like you want to balance things out, but your responses aren't very helpful in trying to understand why you think the QoT has a strong build. You claim to have a secret build, but won't reveal it. Is your goal to keep a secret technique so you can win or to make the game more fun for others by making the QoT more competitive where she is weak?
End of Ptarth's quote

 

Touché.

I'll write the guide.

 

Reply #25 Top

I look forward to reading it :)

Edit: Include replays! (I've turned into a replay junkie again like back in SupCom :( )