Agent of Kharma Agent of Kharma

Skirantra

▼

Skirantra

Effective nerf?

from Sins Forums

I wouldn't swear to these conclusions for the moment, that's why I'm throwing this out there to hear what others say.  But unless I hear something that changes my mind, it seems to be correct.

I've been trying to use the skirantra to counter various things by advent and tec.  It has dawned upon me that while it received a buff along with the other carrier caps, its buff is far less useful in practice, so it received an effective nerf against the other carrier caps.

The ability that got buffed was the scramble bombers ability.  Contrast that with the sova missle platform buff and heavy strikecraft buff, and the halcyon adept drone animae buff.  The problem is, the ability that got buffed for vasari is an antimatter using ability that is in competition with another antimatter using ability (repair) that you'd almost always rather be using most of the time.

- The sova gets buffed missle platform and buffed heavy strikecraft.  The former is the antimatter-using ability it would rather be using in combat anyway, the latter doesn't use antimatter.

- The halcyon gets buffed adept drone animae.  It is not an antimatter using ability.

- The skirantra gets buffed scramble bombers, an antimatter using ability that is direct competition with another vital antimatter using ability - repair.

In practice, you end up using repair in combat, but repair wasn't buffed!  So it's like you are playing with a capship that wasn't buffed like the others were.  I'm not saying scramble bombers doesn't have its uses, I'm just saying you are forced to choose which antimatter using ability you are gonna use for the battle you are in, and if you choose repair you aren't getting the buff.  If you choose buffed scramble bombers, you aren't getting repair.  Neither tec nor advent have to make this choice - the special abilities on their caps fit well together and don't compete with each other.

What needs to happen is, scramble bombers needs to be made a passive ability, and then tuned to the fact that it is passive.

What say you?

 

43,514 views 35 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Darvin3, reply 24


The problem I've always had with MB is that if you can cancel it, it's positively worthless.  That long cooldown means that you'll be waiting positively forever to get a second shot.  On the other hand, if you can't stop it, it's completely overpowering.  I want to see the ability changed such that it's harder to completely negate but not so overpowering if you can't.

So your "help me" list is: Kol, Dunov, Revelation, Rapture, Antorak.  I mostly agree that this is the list of capital ships that need help.  There's one thing worth pointing out: you've listed all the support caps, reinforcing my point that the support caps as a group need help.

I disagree that it's outclassed by the mothership heal.  Honestly I think in many situations that repair cloud is the stronger of the two.  It's only when you combo it off with guardians that the Progenitor's outclasses it.
End of Darvin3's quote

I'm really not sure about what's to be done with Missile Barrage. It's so easily countered now, but dealing 3000 damage is enormous. Though I did some tests a while ago, and a Missile Barrage loses its power around when HCs become common; all three HCs survive against the ability (Though with serious damage). In addition, it takes what- thirty seconds to deal all Missile Barrage damage? I've found that even early fleets can survive just by flying a fair distance away, and taking only a few casualties. The Marza's real purpose now is for Raze Planet and Radiation Bomb. Missile Barrage is just one of those abilities that even a slight change could wreck balance.

Pretty much. Actually though, the Rapture isn't too bad now with the amount of Halcyons currently, but its other abilities are highly underutilized. The only time I've seen a Rapture is when there are at least three Halcyons around. Revelation is similar; its only real purpose is to disable enemy ships. Out of all the caps though, its the Kol and Dunov that need serious improvements. The Kol is just about worthless; Flak Burst is its only real use, and Flak frigates and a Sova already deal with Fighters/Bombers impressively, and the Dunov Battlecruiser needs buffs on all its abilities to be useful.

With the Antorak Marauder, that really does need its own topic, as you said. It's such an entirely unique capital ship that it cannot be compared with any other cap in the game. I've found that it's a very good ship in some circumstances, but it's something that really needs its own discussion.

EDIT: For balancing Scramble Bombers, I'd like it to deploy 1/3/5 Bombers and have a cooldown of 20/25/30 seconds. It'd make the antimatter cost a lot better. Microphasing Aura could have an increased chance of phasing SC. Repair Cloud and Replicate Forces are just fine, currently.

Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top

Actually, on the topic of replicate forces, I'd like to see it be able to replicate different quantities of units.  That is, if I target a flak for replication, I should get more than if I target a heavy cruiser.  This would be nice and add some more variety.  Currently, you use this on cruisers; it's a waste to use it on frigates.

What I propose is that it will create 42 (rounded down in the case of heavies) command worth of units, which would result in the following numbers of extra:

  • Heavy: 3
  • Carrier: 3
  • Overseer:6
  • Subverter: 8
  • Flak:  8
  • Skirmisher: 6
  • Assailant:  7
  • Siege: 3

 

Siege of Centauri
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top

I'm really not sure about what's to be done with Missile Barrage. It's so easily countered now
End of quote

If you are talking buff, I don't think anything should be done with missle barrage.  You say it's easily countered now, but really very little changed except adding capabilities to counter it that weren't there before (disruptive strikes, etc).  This was desperately needed.

Though I did some tests a while ago, and a Missile Barrage loses its power around when HCs become common; all three HCs survive against the ability (Though with serious damage).
End of quote

This isn't a change, the same was true before.  HC survivability to MB is the same.

Do you think MB should be able to DESTROY (not severely damage) all HC within a given area?  So, if I am reading you correctly, instead of the very slight "nerf" the devs gave MB (if you can even call it a nerf), you think the ability should have been buffed?  MB wasn't good enough before?

In addition, it takes what- thirty seconds to deal all Missile Barrage damage? I've found that even early fleets can survive just by flying a fair distance away, and taking only a few casualties.
End of quote

Wow.  Even among MB lovers and defenders, you seem to be pretty hardcore.  I saw plenty of MB'ers argue for not nerfing their beloved MB, but I NEVER saw any of them argue that it wasn't good enough, and that it needed to be buffed further!

So 30 seconds or whatever is too long to deal this massive amount of damage?  So what would you like to see the time frame be?  10 seconds?  5 seconds?  What's the "sweet spot" for you?

Second question:  I'm just curious, why on earth do you think MB should be so powerful, when none of the other abilities (volatile nanites, cleansing brilliance) comes even close?  I guess you must have a reason.  Is it that you think TEC sucks, and needs such an ability to make them even with the other races?

Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top

Though I did some tests a while ago, and a Missile Barrage loses its power around when HCs become common; all three HCs survive against the ability (Though with serious damage).
End of quote

Actually I think frigates survive after some upgrades to hull and also if you have a progen or skirantra you can tank it fairly well so you dont lose ships.Easy counters.I think marza is pretty sweet where it is tho shells could use some buffing it kina sucks.

Now 2 level 6 marza is a diff story:pout:

Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top

Second question: I'm just curious, why on earth do you think MB should be so powerful, when none of the other abilities (volatile nanites, cleansing brilliance) comes even close? I guess you must have a reason. Is it that you think TEC sucks, and needs such an ability to make them even with the other races?
End of quote

To a degree tec needs mb to compete sometimes.If you cant get an eco you better have mb coming online soon.

Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top

To a degree tec needs mb to compete sometimes
End of quote

I disagree with this and even if it is true, then it indicates a serious balance flaw. If a faction needs a rediculously powerful ability that is far outside the scope of  anything else in the game just to remain competitive, then something is seriously wrong.

What I propose is that it will create 42 (rounded down in the case of heavies) command worth of units,
End of quote

This sounds very powerful and useful. I like it. However, units made with RF cost no fleet supply and I do not think that this should change.

Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Agent, reply 28


Wow.  Even among MB lovers and defenders, you seem to be pretty hardcore.  I saw plenty of MB'ers argue for not nerfing their beloved MB, but I NEVER saw any of them argue that it wasn't good enough, and that it needed to be buffed further!

So 30 seconds or whatever is too long to deal this massive amount of damage?  So what would you like to see the time frame be?  10 seconds?  5 seconds?  What's the "sweet spot" for you?

Second question:  I'm just curious, why on earth do you think MB should be so powerful, when none of the other abilities (volatile nanites, cleansing brilliance) comes even close?  I guess you must have a reason.  Is it that you think TEC sucks, and needs such an ability to make them even with the other races?
End of Agent's quote

I wasn't asking for a buff, but I don't want a simple nerf. Missile Barrage is just so extremely difficult to further balance that I feel that any change could either make Missile Barrage either ridiculously powerful or useless.

Of course, the issue of MB is far less important than balancing other ships. Volotile Nanites is indeed a fairly bad ability, and the issue of buffing the Kol Battleship is far more important than MB.

TEC is currently pretty balanced right now, IMO. The only real pressing matter with TEC is that the Kol is atrocious and the Dunov only slightly better.

Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top

I disagree with this and even if it is true, then it indicates a serious balance flaw. If a faction needs a rediculously powerful ability that is far outside the scope of anything else in the game just to remain competitive, then something is seriously wrong.
End of quote

Well advent has repulse and battle ball.Vas has moving sb phase missiles and subverters and tec has....Mediocre until mb.The only reason to get another cap is to gain an upper hand somehow.IE sova and rush embargo or akkan to try and jump start an eco.

Javs weakness becomes more proficient the longer the game goes on imo.Phase upgrades make most vas ships into snipers and 30 ilums vs 30 javs is no contest.It gets worse the more numbers you put up.Hoshis dont help javs after fleets become a certian size.While armor is great I dont think it makes up for the other races advantages.Only way for tec crowd control is a good ole mb.

Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top

Among "pros" with this game, you are the only guy I've run across who thinks that TEC is underpowered compared to vasari.

Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top

Dont think I said that.Mb is one of those things that makes tec unique and it fits them well.The other races would be extremely op with mb on top of all else they have.This is later game.Can you imagine fighting subs with tec?Its a nightmare like fighting repulse.