Are economy and morale too cheap?

Has this been discussed elsewhere already?

Sorry but I think it takes long enough to get your economy going. I imagine that playing at higher difficulty levels where the AI gets economic bonuses is where to go if you thinks its too easy now.

I would have been doomed in siome games if not for some cash filled anomolies.

But it barely measures when the AI gets +100 to +200 economy to start out with. You need it just to get your foot in the door.

- Wyndstar

Remeber too, that its a percent bonus, you still have to get your economy rolling to get the bonus. So it still takes an effort.

I would say that it's fine as it is, quite well-balanced.
Personally I usually don't even pick morale +20, I'd rather have a bigger economy bonus or even something entirely different.

Beat suicidal first, then you can come back to the forum with your above request.

I do think Morale and Economics are a bit undercosted, yes. I mentioned this elsewhere recently.

That they become necessary, especially at higher levels of the game, does not mean they are balanced correctly, nor should it be necessary to play at those levels to recognize this.

Doubling the cost would be too much, though, I think. Rather, the cost should be adjusted only by a few points so that the other bonuses are worth considering instead. There are a few others that some people pick, but the majority of them seem to be overlooked.

The default races that have Morale or Economics would also need to be adjusted to take the new cost into consideration, of course.

I tend to think they're ok given that the AIs are playing the same game. Most of your economy is really getting your population going, and getting morale/economy bonuses going.

The sad thing is the AI at higher levels actually decides it doesn't need stock exchanges since it already has enough money. I played a lower level game recently, and was amazed to see dumber AIs building stock exchanges early.

I personally think part of the solution is to have to balance out "over-building" somehow. I mean right now you can't go wrong with 2 factories, a farm and all stock exchanges on most of your planets. There should either be a diminishing return, or some risk of it not working out.

The other part of what could be done here is to get rid of the square root in tax collection. That would promote larger populations, with more morale buildings and less stock exchanges. It would also take longer to get going.

They're balanced IMO. They're a "quick start" pick rather than a
"long haul" one. Mid game onwards once you've grabbed a few resources they make relatively little difference, especially the morale bonus, whereas many other picks are still almost as potent as they were at the game start.

Well, I must admit that economy bonuses may become less important once the AI gets its huge suicidal bonus. But I'm sure suicidal regulars will be fine whatever the finetunig for a race. I was more thinking of beginning to advanced players, not at the elite. I also believe that Suicidal should NOT be the measuring stick when trying to find out if we're looking at a balanced game.




Mysikmind: I admit I only played (and won and posted) a suicidal game once, but I was not aware that this was a prerequisite for posting. I like playing my games on a level I can easily beat because this leaves me more room for making mistakes.

I think Mystikmind partially made that comment because it tends to be the high level players that use those bonuses more heavily. I've noticed the beginners and normal level players choose a much higher variety of bonuses. There is a good reason for this. Many of the other bonuses will not be used by Suicidals ever because they simply don't help their game. For instance:

I don't think trade ever makes sense, so no trade bonuses.
If I have significant numbers of planet being invaded I've lost, and I never have issues generating enough troops, so no soldering.
Same thing for loyalty.
I never have issues with range or sensors, so they are off the list...

So, in part, the problem is that no matter how expensive the costs my points will go to one of these:
Morale
Economy
Population Growth
Military Production
Social Production
Research

Because they affect my ability to build a stronger base empire. The rest are distracting candy (perhaps not speed if it were cheaper and I know some would add diplomacy). No matter how you rebalance, I will still view something that is worthless to me as still being worthless and get something that is worthwhile no matter how expensive.

In the meantime, beginner and normal players would start to shy away from them due to the increased costs...

i think it's fine the way it is. consider what kinds of other bonuses you can get in the game from mining starbases, just to name one. while they're not reliable, they can still provide significantly higher net bonuses. the initial buys are less meaningful towards the end of a (successful) game.

IMO the econ/morale bonuses are popular specifically among power gamers who shoot for high MV scores because there's a premium on finishing your games within a few game years. the pop growth bonuses are also popular for this reason.

i myself like long and protracted games. i usually play on crippling myself, usually setting my tech pace to slow or very slow. i find that a speed +2 bonus helps me secure a large empire more easily, and while it can take longer to get going, i can usually hold off the warmongering AIs long enough (especially by spending my other two points on diplomacy) to establish a strong infrastructure. once i do that i can often power ahead of the AIs, and the bonuses that can be gained through techs and resources in games are less meaningful to me.

Unless, somehow,said if they give a single building prove very high Morale in very early game for everyone, then more people will pick morale less and rather pick a bouns other then morale. Same go for Economy, Population Growth, Military Production, Social Production, Research, but right now game 1.5, but yet has upgrade game 1.7 becaust it's beta. They give you single building prove very low, so try to give bouns game start cost more isn't help, it's during game, that's single building prove too low in early to mid., I dont know about late game, I am done game before I research all of them every time.

I think his point was that you are suggesting a global change that potentially makes the game more difficult at every level...when there already is a mechanism to make the game progressively more difficult. The other (perhaps more diplomatic) way to say this would be, "Try backing off a level of difficulty and experimenting with some different race abilities."

drrider

BTW, the moderate improvement in the low level Morale buildings in 1.7 beta 1 may accomplish just a bit of the kind of tweaking you are interested in.

drrider