the deep irony here is if you werent being a spineless ass, they probably would refund your money if you said you werent happy with the game and the way they have handled it. I got a refund for simcity 4 after tech support gave me crap, they asked for the cd and packaging, and they sent me a check. demanding and pompous king of the hill crap wont get you anything but stepped on.

I'm going to have to side with AW Trespasser here. There is no reason to remove both his score and his medals if they really are going to be reworking the score. Yes he admitted he exploited to get that score, but its also true that it would be nigh impossible to get the other top scores without exploiting in the same way. The rest of you complaining that hes a "spineless ass" both grow up and learn to read.

he said himself he can resubmit it, but why in the hell would you complain if you cheated? YOU CHEATED. cheeeeeeeated. EXPLOIT...
metaverse is to show off your SKILL, not your button mashing using an Exploit. am I clear enough? do I need to use smaller words?

A couple things put me on AW's side..

First, he said the game took over a week to play (or at least I read it in another thread). Even if he was utilizing an exploit, that's a lot of time to invest in a game, and I don't see the benefit in deleting a score that was so heavily invested.

Second, if the score is being redone, I'm not sure why nature can't take its course. Brad said he would delete it days ago, and he finally did. I have no problems with people doing what they say they will , but I can see the benefit of leaving it there as a baseline to measure the effectiveness of the patch.

But, my real question in this debate is 'how can anyone win by pressing

Wade: Not quite, it's different. I save a normal race, reload it and then get 5 points worth of extra bonuses that DOUBLE when I start a game. So it equates to having 20 points of design value...

hey lev.... havent seen you on the forums before, at least nothing i read....

look, we understand that you are showing that there was a problem, but the metaverse is to show of skill, not to show off that you can press the turn button until you go blind. we understand that everybody can do that..... yet, nobody else has. because everybody knows that its unethical just to keep a game running like that to rack up points. and games with the influence victory off is not a cheese game, because i could pick all my begining points to be influence points and win a game in a few years, turning it off just says its a lot more fun to wipe the floor with everyone where as its nowhere near as fun to just have everyone say, well we like you, game over.

There is also an issue of degree. 15 years in a gigantic galaxy doesn't seem totally unreasonable to me. 203 does. And to assume a "No influence victory" win is automatically an exploit is to imply that the purpose of the influence victory is to impose a de facto time limit on games. I see no reason to believe this is true. I often turn off influence victory when playing simply to avoid an influence victory while winning by military victory (I like to spend a few turns deploying before starting each new war, which leaves me vulnerable to an influence victory). This is not an exploit because I am still trying to win in earnest the whole while, not just stalling to boost my points.

In any case I beleive the 1.1 final is due to be released next week. Then we can put this whole business behind us.

I am glad you got your score deleated.

You exploited a bug.
And you claim you did not cheat. Knowingly exploiting a bug is cheating, i hate to brake it to you.
You invested a week. Do it again but this time dont exploit the bug you seem to have to much time on your hands as it is.

*wishing you got more then just your score deleated

When SD **finally** finishes the MV scoring I hope/expect they will delete ALL scores back to zero to give everyone a fair shake.

When SD **finally** finishes the MV scoring I hope/expect they will delete ALL scores back to zero to give everyone a fair shake.

No, they'll recalculate the existing submitted scores with the new algorithm - so everyone will be playing on a level playing field.

I think there is a simple explanation, since they simply mark his rating for the game as a cheat game, it automatically not counting the game and its rating into the character ranking, so in a sense, it is fully automatic in my opinion, it just happen that they change the game from a normal to a "cheat on" tag.

For the removing MV scoring with new system I think it is basically unreasonable, since most of the gamers have spend countless amount of time on the game and you are asking for drop all their rating into nothingness, but remember Bires, we can't just think for our own benefit and rather forsake all other's. Most of high profiled ranking gamers have been in support of Stardock for a really long time (not counting me!). And it will be "unfair" to them for doing so much already, it is the same situation when US FF onine having discuss on the similar situation, but we just can't simply reset all the driver to null for only to benefit us, and drop all other Japanese player which has long since playing the game. After all we can say is there is not a specific fairness if consider morality. Let's just left the issue on the hand of AWT with stardock support team and their negotiation!

but the metaverse is to show of skill, not to show off that you can press the turn button until you go blind. we understand that everybody can do that

My personal opinion is that *no one* should be able to do nothing for two weeks and still win.. (even if they set themselves in a good position..) At some point, the AI should have done something, like run needMoreSpace() and tried to conquer the weakest planet in range (say, at year 50..) Diplomacy would have to reflect increasing tensions, but needMoreResources() IS one of the oldest reasons for war on this lowly planet.. (even if it doesn't lead to the brightest of wars..)

Once the AI was at war with the all-powerful empire, it would have promply surrendered (of course - given the quitter mentality of the AI - another debate on other threads...).. But the surrender would have ended the game around day 3, or something..

But, as for the score neutralization, I'm all about seeing all-powerful super scores of 4 mil being reduced to, 100? 200?.. There's something oddly satisfying in watching the mighty oak be torn from its roots, shredded into bits not worthy of paper pulp and left to feed only the smallest woodland insects.. I just don't get that satisfaction with a plain-old neutralization.. But, that may just be me .

My personal opinion is that *no one* should be able to do nothing for two weeks and still win

Well, some AI surrenders should be useful to speed the end of a game

You exploited a bug. And you claim you did not cheat.

Is it me or does anyone has a personnal meaning for cheating? He has played the game following the current rules. So he couldn't have cheated. And the bug you are reffering is just the scoring calculation. You can't hardly cheat with that, but you can exploit it. It isn't the same thing.

Peace Phoenix is right. Had he managed to do this with the exploit mentioned here, (the "Multiple reload=multiple bonuses" cheese) then everyone can say "That's a cheat", and that would be fair. As is, he exploited a legitimate loophole in the AI, and IMO needs congratulations for being able to sit it out that long. I think the problem is no-one was expected to have that much patience. If he didn't have the patience, and used a macro to auto-turn, yes that's cheating. But AFAIK he sat at the computer and kept clicking turn.

The difference is glaring when you define cheat and exploit: A cheat is playing with a different set of rules (which he didn't) and an exploit is using those rules in an unexpected way, to go with a weakness in the system (which he did). The entire point of being a gamer at higher levels is to exploit the AI in one way or another. (Look, the Terrans haven't built up quick enough, I'll attack now while they've only got their feet in the galactic door...). While he did it in an unusual, and probably mind numbing way, it really is still legit. He may be allowed to re-submit when the new system is in place (Frogboy said his score would have been about 33,000) if they have deleted it, as opposed to mark it as "cheater". The issue was probably that using one heavily exploited game, he got the #1 medal, and denied others who play the game more legitimately from EVER getting it.

And finally, AW, I really would check to see if you got a RSI from doing that. Your finger must ache like hell.

About the whole refund thing... some of you can't take a joke well, or recognize one, I suppose.

Ahh, the joke-excuse.

Read and learn.
Definition of joke: a humorous anecdote or remark intended to provoke laughter.

It's extremly hard to recognise something as a joke when it by the very definition isn't one.

Now stop whining. Yes, you did good. Yes, your game should be deleted.

Problem detected... pressing end turn increases score. Infinitely.
Emails sent to stardock.... no reply.
Posts on forum detail problem, with much discussion, no developers reply.
Demonstration made on small galaxy, taking first place by above method for all small galaxy games.... no one noticed.
Finaly, as a last resort, I submit the most preposterous game imaginable, all the while telling everyone this is a problem.
Oh, NOW you notice.

Your right, the score probably should be deleted.

But there are thousands of you playing this game, and very few of you can say you did something to insure that this game would be made better. All I asked in return was a lousy former first place medal.
I see now i should have just made my score slightly higher than next best, and kept my mouth shut, if I were in it for just the medal. But I am not in this for "just" the medal. I did it to get the scoring system fixed, and wanting a cookie for doing it is just human nature, like it or lump it.


So stone me, whip me, and call my mother names, but I still win. Were it not for me, the problem would still be ignored. I may not get my former first place medal, but I get the satisfaction of knowing that even the people who flamed me here are going to be playing a better game because of me. Nothing can take that away, not even deleting that silly score. Not even calling me an exploiter.

"Exploit: Using something in a way it was not designed to be used for personal gain or to harm others. "
Now I suppose by some twisted logic that since I want recognition for finaly getting stardock to fix the main reason competetive players ignore the metaverse, I am an exploiter. Thats some mind bending logic tho.

If anyone should have a legit complain against folks posting one or two score MV scores and being in the top 3 or 25 for that matter its the folks with over 25 games posted that only seem to have 200K or so.

Ohhh that would be me.

hehehehe

W/R
Suralle Straykat
Kat Lord @ Large

PS: The above post was made in jest not complaint and specifically should only be taken to heart by those folks who are taking this way to serious and allowing their posts to generate into name calling. Although I do not appreciate the fact that only 18% of my total score is counted in the MV (although I do not understand why this is due to the fact I earned 100% of it by playing the game 100% of the scoring time, I am sure its due to the fact that I only play on the above normal difficulty level 95% of the time...) There now that is a complaint