The assassin, the defender and the mage - Go big or go home

from Elemental Forums

I suggested this tree for the assassin: https://forums.elementalgame.com/441609 and this tree for the mage: https://forums.elementalgame.com/441558 but after i have played a few games and read many forum posts i would go one step further.

The paths in Legendary Heroes are very good, but the game has too many of them and that makes it very difficult to find interesting traits for every path. This results in boring trait lines (vital strike I, vital strike II, ...) and destroys the amazing idea of "Go big or go home".

I have reduced the number of paths and assigned the following traits to them:


Path of the Assassin (+ 15 % critical chance)

Bleed (- 3 hit points per action, passive ability like poison)

Executioner (+ 10 attack against champions)

Vital Strike (+ 15 % critical chance and + 50 % critical damage)

Acrobat (+ 25 dodge)

Precision (+ 25 accuracy)

Break (no defense for 3 turns, 3 turns cooldown)

Shadow Strike (50 % armor penetration)

Hobble (- 2 movement for 3 turns, works with melee and ranged attacks, 3 turns cooldown)

Rain of Arrows (3 turns cooldown)

Eviscerate (works with melee and ranged attacks, 3 turns cooldown)

Quick (+ 3 initiative)

Shadow Shift (3 turns cooldown)


Path of the Defender (+ 10 hit points)

Charge (3 turns cooldown)

Strength (+ 30 weight capacity)

Bruiser (+ 50 % damage when using the overpower ability)

Immune to Swarm

Obsidian Guard (+ 15 to the army's spell resistance)

Shieldwall (+ 5 to the army's defense)

Arcane Veil (3 turns cooldown)

Guard (3 turns cooldown)

Rescue (3 turns cooldown)

Endurance (+ 10 hit points and immune to critical hits)

Resist Elements (+ 50 fire, cold and lightning resistance)

Reap (heals 5 hit points whenever he damages an opponent with a melee attack)


Path of the Mage (- 20 % mana cost for tactical spells)

Aeromancy (+ 50 % damage with air spells)

Geomancy (+ 50 % damage with earth spells)

Hydromancy (+ 50 % damage with water spells)

Pyromancy (+ 50 % damage with fire spells)

Compassion (+ 50 % healing with life spells) OR Death Worship (+ 50 % damage with death spells)

Summon Air Elemental

Summon Fire Elemental

Summon Earth Elemental

Summon Ice Elemental

Summon Skeletal Horde OR Summon Wisp

Savant

Affinity (- 15 % mana cost for tactical spells)

Prodigy (+ 25 spell mastery)

Summoner (+ 3 level for summons)


General traits (10 of these traits are randomly available for every hero)

Merchant (+ 5 gildar per season)

Loremaster (+ 3 research per season)

Attunement (+ 2 mana per season)

Administrator (- 25 % unrest in the city this unit is in)

Adventurer's Boon (+ 10 hit points)

Tinker

Command (3 turns cooldown)

Medic (+ 5 to the army's health regeneration per season)

Finesse (+ 5 attack against targets with lower initiative)

Swordsman (+ 50 % to counterattack damage)

Tactician (+ 2 to the army's initiative)

True Strike (+ 25 accuracy and + 25 % armor penetration for the next attack, 3 turns cooldown)

Brute (+ 5 attack vs lower level units)

Axeman (+ 50 % damage when using the cleave ability)

Sweep (3 turns cooldown)

Spearman (+ 50 % damage when using the impale ability)

Stun (3 turns cooldown)

Spell Resistance (+ 25 spell resistance)

Summon Grave Elemental

Summon Delin

22,704 views 15 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Without commenting on the specifics, I'll say that I'm firmly in favor of less, more powerful traits. I have a personal distaste for really small incremental upgrades, I'd rather be making tough, interesting choices than taking upgrades that barely have any visible effect until you've gained 10 levels (and already have a huge stack of doom at that point, making your upgrades uninteresting for a long period of gameplay).

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

How about a certain set of abilities, useful but not too powerful on their own, when all acquired to unlock a really powerful treat, like the set bonuses in other games, but that would be the icing of the cake. 

It would be like a learning course - you get better bit by bit, but when you finish your education - that is when you become master. 

Maybe heroes should get an initial attunement in, say, 3 (for example, of course) spheres of specialization - like magic/psi/whatever, weapons (warrior/assassin/you get it) and government (unrest/income/research/exclusive building options even if possible/etc) to overall influence your empire or govern certain city (just assign him there, no need to keep the hero in that city all the time). All 3 paths of development will have their branches to choose from and it is up to you whether to delve deeper in one specialization and get really powerful there or create an all rounder. 

This way you will be able to gradually add more and more powerful traits to your champion, developing quite one sided but very effective in his specialization hero, or more balanced, but not that powerful one. Then there will be margin for lesser and stronger skills to be learned, even some beefy combos to be unlocked with certain combinations eventually. 

Hope you consider it:)

Anfield

ObjectDock - Access shortcuts and frequently used applications from an animated dock.
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top


I prefer small incremental upgrades because it's more entertaining. Usually levelling up is a "wow!" moment. If the abilities effect are small, then we can have more level ups.

Also, there are several threads saying that heroes are weaker compared to trained units. If heroes level up more often that would keep them balanced with trained units.

Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top

I think this issue can in part be solved by allowing two spells/abilities per level up instead of just one.

Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top

LESS is BETTER in that the AI never really follows any great paths of power in any of these tech tree games. Even in HOMM I was so powerful the highest powerful AI player couldn't stand toe to toe with me and the game became very boring.

I personally wish no characters leveled or got traits or very minimal ones at that and they had the traits they'd mostly have and use upon creation. This would allow for a more balanced and CHALLENGING game than one where the player just steamrolls everything because of his/her powerful sovereign or even champions they built up over time.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Mtrixis, reply 1

Without commenting on the specifics, I'll say that I'm firmly in favor of less, more powerful traits. I have a personal distaste for really small incremental upgrades, I'd rather be making tough, interesting choices than taking upgrades that barely have any visible effect until you've gained 10 levels (and already have a huge stack of doom at that point, making your upgrades uninteresting for a long period of gameplay).

I agree with this 100%.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Mtrixis, reply 1
I'll say that I'm firmly in favor of less, more powerful traits. I have a personal distaste for really small incremental upgrades, I'd rather be making tough, interesting choices than taking upgrades that barely have any visible effect until you've gained 10 levels (and already have a huge stack of doom at that point, making your upgrades uninteresting for a long period of gameplay).

That is exactly my opinion, too.

Quoting OliverFA_306, reply 3
Also, there are several threads saying that heroes are weaker compared to trained units. If heroes level up more often that would keep them balanced with trained units.

If heroes level up more often they would be still less powerful than trained units, because they gain only 1 hit point, 1 point of accuracy, 1 point of spell mastery and 1 point of spell resistance per level. The traits make the difference and increasing the level speed or the number of traits per level can destroy the balance, because a hero can be a specialist in one part and can ignore the rest.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting joeherbert48, reply 5

LESS is BETTER in that the AI never really follows any great paths of power in any of these tech tree games. Even in HOMM I was so powerful the highest powerful AI player couldn't stand toe to toe with me and the game became very boring.

I personally wish no characters leveled or got traits or very minimal ones at that and they had the traits they'd mostly have and use upon creation. This would allow for a more balanced and CHALLENGING game than one where the player just steamrolls everything because of his/her powerful sovereign or even champions they built up over time.

I think that it is very nice to get more traits at every level if the traits are balanced and to accomplish this balance every trait should have the same power. This would help the AI, too, because it can only select useful traits.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

The available general traits could be selected randomly for every hero to make the game less predictable and everyone happy.

 

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't want them to reduce the number of traits to the point where level-ups become scarce... leveling is fun and I wouldn't want it so that you couldn't ever get your hero past say level 12.

That concern aside I agree completely that there need to be lots of interesting traits scattered around. Perhaps not every level but every second level you should be reaching something interesting.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting OliverFA_306, reply 3


I prefer small incremental upgrades because it's more entertaining. Usually levelling up is a "wow!" moment. If the abilities effect are small, then we can have more level ups.

Also, there are several threads saying that heroes are weaker compared to trained units. If heroes level up more often that would keep them balanced with trained units.

 

+ It's all about those small level ups for me too. Huge benefits will make heroes unbeatable too fast (or force the level ups to come very seldom or make heroes too powerfull for balance vs units and monsters).

I also like long term effects like 1 HP per level instead of an instant +10 HP for the defender as suggested here by the OP.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

One idea: allow one general trait improvement at lvl up (and expand that tree some, at the very least allow certain unique skills to lvl up), and one trait in your school.

 

 

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Mtrixis, reply 1

Without commenting on the specifics, I'll say that I'm firmly in favor of less, more powerful traits.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree with the more powerful traits idea, but not the less is better theory.  These reason I don't agree with it is that every Warrior will end up the same, or very similar, if there are fewer options to from which to choose. 

I say more, epic choices.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

I have reduced the path traits and increased the general traits that are randomly available. This should solve the problem that heroes of the same path have the same traits.

The crushing blow ability of hammers, mauls, ... is replaced by the overpower ability that inflicts 50 % of the normal damage to every member in the group. This should solve the problem that heroes are not able to deal enough damage against units.