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Priority of the Fixing of Underpowered Capital Abilities

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Priority of the Fixing of Underpowered Capital Abilities

from Sins Forums

These are just opinions, and you can probably argue a few of them, but ehh...  Here you go...  Also, if you have a suggestion, I would be glad to add it to the list.

Also, I will use the star system to notate what I believe the power of the ability is as well as the suggested fix(es).

 

1.  Animosity**': This gets number one for 1 purpose.  It has none.  Honestly, this ability has no true value unless facing the AI.

Pros: Stops damage from hitting friendly units

Cons: Can be overwritten by a human player

Proposed Fix A***': There is no real way that is good...  Some say to have it re-issue the order, some want it to buff the Radiance temporarily so it makes sense to target it, and then some ideas are off in left field.  In other words, I don't know what to do with this, but I'll say that it continually rebuffs the targets so that they have no option.

Proposed Fix B****: This was by another person, but anyways, the idea is that the ability would force enemy SC to run into the Radiance itself, destroying them and dealing minor damage to the Radiance.  I'll throw out some statistics for what I believe would be fair.  25 damage per SC with a range of 5000/7500/10000 and a duration of 10/20/30.  The end result is that SC get slaughtered on a grand scale allowing the Advent to quickly gain air superiority

Proposed Fix C***: This one is the idea of Agent.  It basically says that the Radiance gets a souped up version of the Guardian's shield bubble for the duration so it automatically gets it.

Proposed Fix D***': This one is by Darvin.  The idea here is that you cause all ships around the Radiance to be invincible, forcing you to target it.

Proposed Fix E***: This may not be the most powerful one, but it solves the problem.  All you have to do is change a couple lines of code and you can make this so that it makes it impossible for ships to target anything else...  In other words, you can make the ability work.

 

2.  Gauss Rail Gun*': This ability gets number 2 because it is more or less worthless.  It deals low damage which is then mitigated.  Also, because you don't want a first strike monster, you can't directly buff the damage.

Pros: Good damage against structures and as a first strike ability

Cons: Worthless once mitigation comes into play.

Proposed Fix A****: I suggest a debuff be instilled on the target that replaces the current speed break debuff.  This would be a shield break similar to what Subs do.  Along with damage, there is also a stackable damage redux of 1.5%/3.0%/4.5% for 10/12/14 seconds.  This means that the Kol also gains a value as a fleet ship and not just a standalone.

Proposed Fix B****: Agent suggested having it be a true railgun that goes through whatever the target is.  Then it could actually act as a railgun.  I would think though that at that point you would have to make it damage hull, which I am against.

Proposed Fix C****: Going off the tradition of TEC gauss turrets and the suggestions of others, here is another.  It is a debuff that reduces armor by 5/7.5/10.  If that seems like a lot, you must remember that it would only apply if you are hitting hull.

Proposed Fix D*****: This is a myriad fix.  Basically, making GRG do everything, if only in small amounts.  What this does is it basically does everything imaginable that could arise from being hit from an RBG.  This would be: mitigation reduction of 2%/3%/4%, reduction in armor by 2/3/4, passive regeneration disabled, engines handicapped, and abilities disabled. 

Faulty Fix A*****': It has been suggested many many many times that GRG simply ignore shields and go straight for hull.  No!  That would take the second least valuable ability in the game and make it unstoppable.  Not even the Vasari have a straight damage weapon like that.  If you want to know why, you could spam GRG and take down an enemy capital early game with no trouble at all.  That is WAAAAAAY too powerful.

Faulty Fix B*****: It has also been suggested that the damage be vastly increased to say 1500/2000/2500.  There are a few problems with that.  For one, that makes this more powerful than Cleansing Brilliance which is a L6.  Next, you forget that this ability can target structures so this is a turret instagib.  Not only that, but the first shot you fire in a battle deals almost full damage against shields, making this knock down enemy shields almost instantly on most capitals.  No.

 

3.  Subversion**: This ability has its uses, but they are so few and far between that it is worthless in most situations.  This increases the time it takes to build ships in the gravity well.

Pros: Definitely allows a level VI Antorak to go on a rear world killing spree without having much of a fight on its hands.

Cons: You have to wait till you have a level VI Antorak before this ability has much use.

Proposed Fix****: I believe that this ability needs a second use.  Power can be exchanged for being multi-purpose.  I suggested in another thread that this deal 1/3/5 unmitigated DPS to frigates, 5/7/9 to capitals and structures, and 9/11/13 to starbases for 10/20/30 seconds.  While it is light damage, it is some nonetheless and would make this far more useful.  Now, you may want to know how this works...  Well, let's say you use it on a planet.  The target filter gives it a debuff that slows construction times.  Say you want it to deal damage to all nearby enemies?  Target yourself.

 

 

4.  Phase Missile Swarm*': These things are crap

Pros: these things are crap

Cons: these things are crap

Proposed Fix****: Spawns two types of missiles.  First type ignores shields and hits the hull.  The other hits shields.  Also, change the target cap to 10/20/30

 

 

5.  Guidance***: It takes AM to reduce cooldowns, but then again, you don't need that, so you just end up burning AM...

Pros: Reduces cooldowns on capital abilities

Cons: Sucks up too much AM for something that accelerates AM loss...

Proposed Fix: I don't have one.

 

6.  Shield Restore: This is great for keeping a single capital alive, while being FF'd, but still, its not that much later in the game...

Pros: Good amount of shield healed

Cons: Can't aim at self and not enough late game.

Proposed Fix****: Courtesy of Darvin, I believe that there should be a buff that increases mitigation to 90% for 10/12/14 seconds in addition to the current heal and being able to target itself.

 

7.  Phase Out Hull**: This was improved, but I don't think the devs did quite enough...

Pros: Versatile interrupt

Cons: Neither option does that much

Proposed Fix***': Change the amount of damage/healed to 200/300/400.

 

8.  Magnetize**': This is kinda meh...

Pros: Good at stopping early game SC

Cons: You don't get a Dunov early game

Proposed Fix A***': Causes SC to crash into the target and create a "toxic" debris field damaging all units within 5000/6000/7000 for 5/10/15 DPS for 60 seconds.

Proposed Fix B*****: Causes variable effects based on level.  Level 1 is same as normal; SC crash into the target.  2 causes frigates to crash into the target as well.  3 causes capital ships to crash into the target (though neither these nor the frigates are totally destroyed. 

Proposed Fix C****:  Causes SC to crash into the target, but it also allows you to target your own ships so you aren't destroyed by kiting

 

9.  Colonize [Jarrasul]*': This does very very little in comparison to the others

Pros: Increases build speed

Cons: Increases build speed by a measly 20%

Proposed Fix A***: Increase build speed buff to 20%/40%/60%

Proposed Fix B****: Cause it to start the planet off with say 100/200/300 population.

 

10.  Targeting Uplink**': This gives a range boost and accuracy, but that's about it.

Pros: Increases range slightly and increases anti-SC accuracy

Cons: Neither do that much to gameplay

Proposed Fix****: A stacking DPS increase buff.  Cause all ships in range to be instilled with a buff that causes them to pass on a debuff to whatever they shoot at.  This debuff stacks, but only lasts for 3 seconds.  Each one increases damage dealt to the target by .25%/.50%/.75%.  This means that if you have 100 ships affect by TU, you get a 75% increase in damage against a target.  This would make FFing targets more effective and would give the Akkan an ability that actually helps its allies more or less directly as opposed to its others which are incredibly indirect.

 

11.  Adaptive Forcefield***': An ability that vastly increases the Kol's life, but also drain AM.

Pros: Nullifies PM's and reduces damage

Cons: Drains AM quickly

Proposed Fix***': Make passive and reduce damage redux to 7.5%/15%/22.5%

 

12.  Incendiary Shells**': These things only increase DPS to a target by 6.

Pros: Increases DPS to the target by 6

Cons: Increase DPS to the target by 6

Proposed Fix***': Cause it to also reduce armor by 1/2/3 pointsStardock Entertainment

Faulty Fix*****: Current system, but causes damage directly to hull and stacks.  This is bad.  Stacking by itself is WAY too powerful.  The Marza is a capital with almost all its weapons facing forward which means that four banks will fire on one target.  This means that you will have about 8 buffs stacked on top of one another.  That means that it would deal 40 DPS directly to hull.  This is a passive!  You don't need that kind of power on a passive!

13.  Malice***: This is a modest ability on a great ship that always ends up with points elsewhere.

Pros: Spreads Damage

Cons: On a great ship and is not used because it does not compete with the other abilities

Proposed Fix****': Increase target cap to 30/40/50 and propagate 20%/40%/60% of damage

 

14.  Jam Weapons***: This ability nullifies SC, but does not do anything to harm them.

Pros: Stops SC damage

Cons: Drains a ton of AM and deals no damage.

Proposed Fix A****: Cause SC weapons to "malfunction" and rather than damaging the target, they damage the SC itself for 50% of the DPS.

Proposed Fix B***': Increase range from 4500/5500/6500 to 5000/6000/7000

 

Well, there you go..  Those are the abilities I think need buffs and the order in which I think they deserve to be fixed.

146,599 views 125 replies
Reply #76 from Sins Forums Top

Okay, first off, this is not a text message.  Your thoughts can be more complete than that compressed garbage.

Second, the Egg is about right in combat.  I don't want to buff Nano, GW, or DP.  I want to buff Colonize.  Currently, there is no reason to really even get it on an egg because GW and Nano are so much better and it is only slightly better than the colony frigate (which can turn into an SB should you need it btw).  For this reason, its colonize is underpowered.  That is why it needs to be buffed.  Even if you slightly nerf Scramble Bombers, the Skirantra would still be a better combat choice.  You only need one Egg since Nano doesn't stack and its hard to colonize a planet twice...

Thirdly, POH does not save ailing capitals.  It instills invulnerability which inhibits any change in health.  All it is good for is taking a ship out of combat, interrupts, and reducing its mitigation temporarily.  That is all.  Sure, you can use it to "heal" your ships, but repair cloud and Subs are much much better at that.

It is a clumsy interrupt that pales in comparison to the passive Disruptive Strikes on the Kortul.  For this reason, you cannot use the argument that it is a good ability.  If you want an interrupt, get a Kortul.  The only really good time the Antorak is useful is when you get it to level six at which point you can wreck enemy empires from the inside thanks to the Kostura.  Then and only then is it useful.  The same goes for Subversion and Distort Gravity.

You should never need DG before you get SPS.  You have Phase Stabilizers for transit.  You simply don't need it.

For the above reasons, the Antorak Maurader is underpowered and thus requires buffs in multiple areas.

Reply #77 from Sins Forums Top

hmmm...play online against a skilled vasari and see him use a maurader against you...you will say it is OP after 2-3 games. and noone uses the kortul (NOONE)

an egg can colonize 6 times faster than an colony frig lol. still see alot of eggs in MP, but rarely see any progs or akkans

EDIT: and the marauder can save your caps if you are in a gravwell with a phase jump inhibiter....

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Reply #78 from Sins Forums Top

and agent of karma....caps are more powerfull now and used more now in MP than ever before in this games history. most players (incuding me) will have 2-3 caps by midgame and 5-7 by late game. most players go 2 caps start at the begginning because they are so powerfull....when is the last time u played a game online against competent players??? lol
End of quote

Uh... who the hell are you?  I've got more than 1000 games online.  I've never seen you online, as far as I know.  You really want to question whether or not I've played online against competent players?

Sure, let's play.  Go ahead and spam all the caps you want.  I'll spam tons of lrm and bombers, and we'll see who wins.

Reply #79 from Sins Forums Top

Now that's fightin' talk.  I like that sort of talk, this forum needs more braggin'.  Hell, we ain't even got ourselves a champion's thread.

We need some replays for this version anyway, it'll help to teach the new players.  No-one seemed keen on a balance testing thread with replays.  Could you two set up a match perhaps at the weekend, have a best-of-three or whatever seems appropriate?  I can suggest rules and turn up to help, if you'd like a referee?  Your match could even have its own thread, with mandatory weigh-in and further glaring.. 

Reply #80 from Sins Forums Top

Derek: Every post you write makes you less and less credible...  But just for the sake of it, let's compare ships...

Antorak:

POH: interrupt that deals 200 shield damage and removes a unit from the fight for about 18 seconds, but the ability itself has a higher cooldown preventing multiple enemies from being phased out.  Sucky ability.

DG: Speeds up ship movement drastically and causes immunity to PJI's.  Fair ability.

Subversion: Reduces build rates on the local planet.  Problem is, its just for that planet so they can send in reinforcements from rear planets (I don't even put factories on edge planets.  I put up a phase gate or two and have 10 factories on a desert planet along with another PS.

SPS: Awesome ability.  Problem is, until level six, the Antorak sucks and there are better options out there.  In other words, you won't ever get this ability.

 

Kortul:

PS: Great ability.  Restores 1200 shields and also reduces cooldowns which nearly doubles the power of DS.

JW: Good help against enemy SC.  Sure, it deals no damage, but the area is quite large and essentially protects your entire fleet for 30 seconds during which your Sentinels can roam free.

DS: Awesome ability.  This passive drains AM, interrupts, and increases ability cooldowns on anything you shoot at...  Passively!  This is tied with Det AM as the best interrupt in the game.

VN: Good fleet destroyer.  Works best with Subs and Ruiners.  Not the best mind you, but it really cranks up the power of the Sub+Ruiner combo.

 

Now please tell me how the Antorak is better.  Please.  I would love to know...

 

Next, Six times?  Really?  Are you seriously counting cooldowns?  Cooldowns on colonize are irrelevant so long as they are not inhibitory.  It takes longer to regenerate the AM from it than the cooldown is.

I can understand not seeing Akkans because they are economic, not tactical ships, but no Motherships?  Progenitors are spectacular fleet assistors.  Any Advent that has >3 capitals and doesn't have at least one Progenitor is a fool.

 

And as I said before, it is nice if you run into a PJI.  DG is the only good ability on the Antorak before level six whereas the Kortul has three.  I have a solution to the PJI issue though...  Use bombers to take out the PJI and fighters to kill constructors.

 

And if you really want to pick a fight, I would choose someone other than Agent.  He may be a cynic, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about...

Reply #81 from Sins Forums Top

An' were ah a bettin' sorta char'cter I'd be wise to see mah money ridin' on the other side, which'd make one backer fer each... that is purty damn cynical too, even if'n ah say so mahsel'...  Agent makes for a good discussion, I'll grant him that.  How many online games have you got, Volt? 

Reply #82 from Sins Forums Top

Zero.  Absolutely zero.  I am not going to hide that fact, but I try to combine my tests that I perform by playing against myself with the knowledge that is accepted by respected members of the community.  But what I do know is this.  Any issues found in SP are amplified many many times in MP and I find difficulty finding a use for the Antorak in SP, let alone what would happen in MP.  Not only that, but it is traditionally accepted knowledge that the Antorak sucks...

So, in that way, I would at least like to be able to pride myself as one of the most knowledgable SP players out there, potentially knowing more about the mechanics of the game (due to modding it) than a good chunk of the MP players.

 

If you want the reasons for why I don't play MP, I have a few.  

  1. My schedule doesn't allow for many hour-and-a-half stretches.
  2. Those that I do get are spent debugging my mod.
  3. I hate online jerks.
  4. I really hate online jerks.

Reply #83 from Sins Forums Top

volt...you just lost all credibility in my eyes.

lol...no wonder you are so far out in left field...you do not play online

"forgiver him father, for he does not know what he is missing"

"I am not a crook."..erm..jerk...

if you played online you would notice that...no skilled player ever builds a kortul (unless for kicks) skilled players use the antorak. and there are reasons...reasons that you would notice if you played online

Agent of Karma....sorry i caused you to pop some blood vessels but i play online regurlary and many,,,many players (including very skilled ones) begin with a 2cap start, and have a third by midgame. It used to be u made only one and maybe, maybe got another lategame...this is a considerable improvement

and stats in this game mean nothing..total games played eh...mean a little but i know of players with close to 1000 games who still are noob

Reply #84 from Sins Forums Top

 

May I make you aware that I have come up with some of the suggestions that have been implemented into the game such as the buff to Phase Out Hull that caused it to deal shield damage or hull damage. Therefore, I am apparently not quite as stupid as you make me out to be.

 

I have am also in the midst of debugging the mod I am working on. Let me tell you that there is no better way to learn the mechanics of a game than to be looking directly at the code.

 

This is just kind of ironic. I'm left-handed, so that analogy isn't quite as applicable. Though if you look around at what people traditionally say on these forums, you will find that you, rather than I, are in left field.

 

At any rate, if I have indeed lost all credibility in your eyes, I would like to at least have you answer my question. Why then is the Antorak so much better.

 

POH is worse than DS at interrupting targets. The only thing it really does is slow down escaping targets. Don't talk to me about defensive use as even a single Sub does more than that (and its to hull with an armor boost... Oh yeah, and its instant and stacks.) For this reason, you could use the argument that it stops enemy ships from escaping, but it is still not as good as Ion Bolt on the Akkan because a wild guess says that a fleet can deal more than 200 damage over 18 seconds.

 

So POH does two things: interrupts (which is the same as the Kortul) and stops escape attempts whereas the Kortul kills AM and abilities passively.

 

DG is weird. You don't need the speed boost much (actually, did they buff the turn rates as well? I can't remember if they did or not because that would aid a bit) because of Phase Gates, but the PJI immunity is nice.

 

I'm assuming we can agree that Subversion sucks under normal circumstances? If so, moving on...

 

We also agree that SPS is a great ability and let's you do deep raids into enemy territory.

 

This means that the Antorak has two decent abilities below level 6 whereas the Kol has 3 good ones.

 

How is the Kortul weaker?

 

 

Also, Agent plays Sins like a friend of mine plays chess. My friend will gladly trade queens at the beginning of a match because he doesn't need it (and will easily beat anyone else in the county easily except for a select few such as myself that can occasionally beat him). I believe that Agent is the same way with capital ships (choosing not to use them in combat), though perhaps not quite as good at Sins as my friend is at chess.

 

But capitals are certainly stronger (for the most part) than they were originally. I still wish that MB wouldn't have been nerfed and that Malice wouldn't have been nerfed quite so much, but for the most part, this is better.

Reply #85 from Sins Forums Top

Your attitude seems incomprehensible, you clearly want to contribute on balance, and balance is only relevant to online.  Single players can make their own mod to create their own balance, or choose among the many mods available.  This option isn't anywhere near as easy for online players. 

Are none of us good enough to want to play us online?  You seem to approve of Agent, why not organise a few 1v1s with him, to test the game out?  You can't just rely on secondhand reports from the forum.  A sound understanding of the game will help you greatly- but experience of combat against human players is priceless.  RTS is firstest with the mostest.  It's difficult to estimate how good a player someone is by their.. punctuation.   

Reply #86 from Stardock Forums Top

@DesConner- as Volt has said before, his schedule doesn't really allow for the stretches that allow online games to be played without quitting out.

I tried online a couple times in Sins. I will never venture online again, no matter what anybody says. My first experience was actually rather fun (a 9v1 human vs. AI to help ease me into online), but I didn't get to finish it (time constraints are a b1tch). My next few online games were complete crapshoots with some jerkwads getting like 20 LRFs and then finding my HW. Bunch of BS. 20 LRF in 20 minutes?! Of course, then I had the whole "30 Illum in 10 or 15 minutes rush". Stupid n00by Illum spammers.

Reply #87 from Sins Forums Top

I speak more in theory than practice as Agent will tell you, but I have come up with working counters to things such as the Halcyon rush (before the buff of SB) among other things.  I understand that I am not necessarily the best player, but I would like to at least consider myself good enough at the theory and strategy behind playing the game to counteract much of my lack of experience online.

 

As for my intent...  Why do I?  Call it altruism, I don't care.  The fact is, there are issues with the game that many players find unbalanced and in theory, I agree with them.  I then tend to come up with ideas to solve such problems and then suggest them to those who do play online to test them out.  The fact is, despite my ego, I do care about balance which is why I'm even bothering with this thread.  If I didn't care, I wouldn't have made this thread.  That is not to say however that this thread is for my ideas alone.  I wrote the OP with the intent of adding the ideas of others.  Unfortunately, people do not seem to understand that...

And like I said (and Whiskey reiterated), I just don't have the time...

 

Not only that, but this summer I would love to start playing online when I have the time, but the fact is simply this: I don't have time, leastways not now.

 

In regards to me judging his skill by his grammar...  I wasn't doing that.  He was compressing his posts into text message garbage which was really just annoying me.  Now, when he goes against what is the traditionally accepted strategy and theory of the game, that is when he started to seem to not know what he was talking about.

 

The bottom line is, I work in theorycraft, yes.  But that doesn't mean that what I say is stupid.  Because I don't play online, I need others to verify my conclusions through testing, but there is a good chunk of the time that I am correct.  I don't claim to be the best Sins player, but I do consider myself very knowledgeable of the mechanics that run it.  For this reason, what I say is generally not terribly outlandish, but rather logical.  I am a programmer.  This game is a program.  It makes sense to me.  Combine that with the fact that I hate seeing people annoyed by issues with a game, and there you have the reason that I work in theorycraft.  I want to make it better.  

Currently, I am not going to be an adequate tester of my own ideas since I have no online experience, but by the end of the summer, I would hope that I have changed that such that I would actually be able to test my own ideas rather than requiring someone else to do it for me...

Reply #88 from Sins Forums Top

if you played online you would notice that...no skilled player ever builds a kortul
End of quote

Tell that to the guy who built about 7 the other day in a skilled game.

Agent of Karma....sorry i caused you to pop some blood vessels but i play online regurlary and many,,,many players (including very skilled ones) begin with a 2cap start, and have a third by midgame.
End of quote

Of course they do.  I never said otherwise.  I just said that caps cannot perform their function and support the fleet because they die far too quickly to focus fire.  Anyone with half a brain knows that - it's obvious.

Skilled players in online games build multiple caps for 2 reasons.  1. Caps are strong in rushing, as I've already stated (online games are rush games on rush maps).  2. Pros are nothing if not expedient.  I asked a pro the other day why he lrm spammed.  "Because I'm bored and just want to take out this newb real quick" was his response.  A multiple cap strat is easy to pull off for a pro (just mash "build capship" button a few times) and can crush a player of lesser skill.

This doesn't change the fact that caps suck.

i know of players with close to 1000 games who still are noob
End of quote

Really?  Please name their names.

@Volt, Distort Gravity isn't really used to speed up your fleet going from one side of the universe to the other (as you said, you can use phase stabilizers for that).  It is used tactically to kite your fleet around the grav well.

Also, not sure that I agree that phase out hull is a sucky interrupt.  I'd classify it as better than the interrupt with disruptive strikes, because it has a 100% chance of working, and it works right when you want it to work.  Disruptive strikes only has a percent chance of working with each hit.  I mean, theoretically you could take quite a bit of missle barrage to the face before it decides to trigger.

Reply #89 from Sins Forums Top

I never really kite, so I hadn't thought of using DG for that...  My apologies.

I guess to each his own.  In my mind at least, passive interrupt that kills AM is better than active instant one that sucks up your AM, but still, you do have two forward weapon banks, so odds are one is going to interrupt (not to mention what the side beams are doing)  I still say that DS is stronger, but yes, POH can stop MB instantly.

Reply #90 from Sins Forums Top

thank you dessconner you said it better than i could

volt u claim to know so much but i garentee you be gettn wooped online lol

use maruader to A: kill enemy caps as they try to jump out when they get damaged (ie interupt their phase jump charge up) and B: allow urself to jump into to a fight u cannot win to kill something important (ie a damaged lvl6 cap) and jump out without worries of getting trapped due to pji and B: give ur damaged cap a few seconds longer whilest ur skirantras repair cloud recharges or untill u can get a few vas repair cruisers into range

 

Reply #91 from Sins Forums Top

Didn't I say that?

And thank you.  This is the answer I was looking for.

Reply #92 from Sins Forums Top

we seem to agree on the fact that caps need buffed. just disagree on which ;)

Skirantra--NERF

sova, marza, akkan, haly, egg, mauradar--FINE (never mentioned akkan but ion bolt is great as is its lvl 6 ability and its colonize is arguably the best)

all other caps--BUFF

Reply #93 from Sins Forums Top

I know this kinda mames me sound like an ass, but anyone else get the feeling he took so long to explain marauder's use because he was trying to figure it out?

Volt:  I agree with reasons 3 and 4 for why you don't play online.

-Twilight Storm

Reply #94 from Sins Forums Top

I'm pretty sure it doesn't mame you... Atleast, I think I'm pretty sure :S

 

Reply #95 from Sins Forums Top

1.hurmmm i think Magnetize radius of effect should be increased up to 150-200% to be very effective in culling swarmers out there

2.i dun see any problems with DG currently, DG + GW + IF + any huge AoE skills owns everything in large scale battles mid to late game.

3.oh if some1 complains about how kortul is weaker, my u haven't seen a kortul with 450 pulse beam dmg eh?

Reply #96 from Sins Forums Top

None of what has been said implies that making Subversion relevant to the game will somehow make the Marauder too powerful a ship.   Also, the Kortul is a powerful ship.  If you abuse Scramble Bombers before what I very much hope will be a full revert, it does make the Marauder very much more powerful because of the kiting and phase jump inhibitor immunity, but that might not continue to be the case after any readjustment.

That's one of the problems with theorycraft, you balance for how the game will be rather than how it is.  However it's not really 'skilled' play to abuse current game problems, like it wasn't 'skilled' to build bugged illuminators.  The 'skilled' players that I respect are not playing Vasari in this version, and it isn't 'skilled' to use a Marauder with two Skirantras rather than three Skirantras... That shouldn't be taken as a belief that Agent might prevail in a TEC vs TEC contest though!

The preconceptions players have of online can be amusing.  Twenty LRF in twenty minutes is not a rush.. you can almost build ten or a dozen LRF at the start, if you don't build a second capital.  If it was Illuminators when they were bugged, well maybe, but you might find that you had similar difficulties with Assailants and bombers in the current version.

Also twenty minutes is an age in many RTS- a rush might be a five minute game, a normal game might last fifteen minutes.  There was one time I came across a player who asked me to go away from his homeworld, because he had capital ships of all five types queued at his factory.  He might have wanted to confuse me, and it worked sort of, but my ships were already destroying his facilities, even during my bafflement....

What too many players fail to understand is that you have to scout, match your opponent and fight your way to a viable fleet composition- not plan a viable fleet composition and then if you get disturbed while colonising you're the victim of some 'noob'.  Its when you can't stop a tactic even if you can spot it that you can legitimately complain.  That's why Skirantras/Assailants/Phase Missiles is suspect.  Its not much use having flak against scrambled bombers when they die anyway in two minutes...

However, if you wait for a balanced game to play online, then you have to remember that everyone who continues to play is getting better, win or lose.  Also, hopefully, the game will continue to improve without your contribution to the testing of the current version.      

Reply #97 from Sins Forums Top

Bombers die in two minutes, but you should take them out before they can do their two minutes of damage.  Only time to ignore them is if your fleet is designed to kill Caps, in which case the bombers are null, until the Skirantra is dead, anyway.

-Twilight Storm

Reply #98 from Sins Forums Top

Out of interest, how many online games have you played?

Reply #99 from Sins Forums Top

About 6.  I never claimed to be an expert on MP, far from it.  I'm a Noob to MP, and probably wont go back to it because of what jerks I've played with. It's just simple theoretical tactics.  Destroy the source, then what it was producing to kill it most efficiently.

And I'm not saying thats the way to do it online, I personally destroy Skirantras religiously whenever I see one, in SP or the few times i did see em online near my fleet.  They're a big juicy target with lots of reasons to kill it first.  Strikecraft, Strikecraft-supporting abilities, its a repair ship, and it can effectively "Ressurect" a portion of their fleet for about 3 minutes by using replicate forces.

-Twilight Storm

Reply #100 from Sins Forums Top

There was a time I logged in and one of my friends was playing an inexperienced player, so I messaged him 'Your cap ship can attack roids on its own you know.'

Thats simple theory as well.  But he didn't appreciate it.

I dunno, I've played many games online, I've met very few players that might have put me off, and none that I wouldn't play 1v1.  I've always wondered whether the pick-up 'balanced' games weren't very poor introductions to online.  There's been 1v1 games where I've had more chat with my opponent than from my whole team in pick-up 4s or 5s.