Wins Loss stats is killing the game

from Demigod Forums

I don't know about you guys, but personally, starting a game is a living pain. Because of the stats, nobody ever wants to be on the losing team. It is not possible to start a game unless either the teams are perfectly balanced, or you are lucky enough to play against players who don't care to lose, and accepts to start the game. Not to mention rage disconnects right before the citadel falls...

New commers who don't know about this, or who aren't very good get a 2W/20L, and get kicked out of games. And when they don't get kicked, the game never starts anyways, because nobody wants to play a game along side the noob.

Not only that, but it creates an obsession about winning. I personnally just want to have fun, and don't care about losing, but not if I am later judged for not having enough wins. It prevents me from trying to experiment alternative builds, or just plain having fun. I used to not mind losing, but now it really pisses me off, and that is not the way I want to play this game. Playing Demigod has become a source of anger and stress for me.

Isn't there a way to simply have a "ranking"? In lots of games, you have "levels/rank", including supcom. If a player with a high rank wins against a player with a low rank, he gains nothing, and vice versa. Defeating higher ranking players nets higher reankings though.

I think it is vital to try to give players a ranking on something less binary as Win/Loss. I think it is vital that a player can just "Play his best", and have a rank that reflects on his skill, on his performance, and not just on the outcome of the game.

I don't have a concrete solution, but I think something as simple as "Favor per match" could be a better alternative. If you are the best on your team, and still lose, you won't go home empty handed. If you suck, but are on the winning team, then the net gain will be pretty low.

 

How do you guys feel about this?

demigod
16,925 views 30 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

Its true. Its getting ridicoulus.

I was threatened to be kicked from a game for having a win rate less than 50%. I however had almost doubel the games of everyone else and when the game started I was obviously better and after getting 3 kills the other team rage quitted

People need to stop trying to win all the time. Its really bugging me. There should be an option to switch off access to stats

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting _Golgoth_, reply 1
Its true. Its getting ridicoulus.

I was threatened to be kicked from a game for having a win rate less than 50%. I however had almost doubel the games of everyone else and when the game started I was obviously better and after getting 3 kills the other team rage quitted

People need to stop trying to win all the time. Its really bugging me. There should be an option to switch off access to stats
End of _Golgoth_'s quote

Can you imagine what playing this game with a ratio of 8% is like *shudders*?

I would really like an option to have a "Friendly Match", where all the players agree prior to the match that the game will not be recorded for stats. I know I'd be playing there more often.

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

wasnt the stat overlay demanded by the public though?

if so, i have to say "quit bitching..."

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

There is no pleasing everyone.

 

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 4
There is no pleasing everyone.

 
End of Frogboy's quote

I'm not saying stats are bad. On the contrary, it is good to know player levels to play funner games. I'm glad we have a stats system. I'm just sying that the way it is done puts so much emphasis on winning and losing. The only thing that counts is the output. Isn't there a way we could tweak it?

Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

maybe a thread needs to be started for people who want to play and don't care about stats. I understand the ready to play thing....i just forget about it though.

sure winning is fun....but who cares. I don't.   bought the game to have fun not to see what rank I can make or beat.  even putting on the overlay current losing streak/winning streak may even work. Just because my game percentage was at 78% over x amount of games (can't remember since the reset) doesn't mean we will always win. there are days I play bad and days I play good and days I play mediocre...don't punish me by making this game unfun because the "public" voted for the overlay..as part of the "public" I didn't see a voting booth for this so I never voted for it. But if it's here to stay then I say tweak to make the game a fun one to play again and not a time waster of people coming into a game and leaving all because the percentage or familitary is high. 

Anyone just looking to play to have fun look me up (Lorlor) or warcryoftruth we play a lot together along with a few others. normally central standard time at night. we will always play no matter what, that is what this game is about. If you wanted to win a rank, join the olympics for some real fame.

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting monarch_dodra, reply 5

Quoting Frogboy, reply 4There is no pleasing everyone.

 
I'm not saying stats are bad. On the contrary, it is good to know player levels to play funner games. I'm glad we have a stats system. I'm just sying that the way it is done puts so much emphasis on winning and losing. The only thing that counts is the output. Isn't there a way we could tweak it?
End of monarch_dodra's quote

Until someone starts paying me to play this game, I do not want to play with a teammate that is poorly skilled if the opposition is competent across the board.  No matter how good a person is in this game, he cannot carry a team.  One feeder and the game is over. 

The best measure is a person's win/loss record coupled with the number of games they have played.  Is it perfect?  No, but what is the alternative?  This stat reset is playing havoc with getting a good game going.  I can't tell whether my teammates are competent or not anymore.

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

"Balance?"

 

It looks like we've got a great game set up.  Two really experienced players, one on each team with 500 plus games, and 4 competent players with 100 - 250 games, two on each team and everyone hovering between 40-55% win percentage.

 

Yes... it looks like we have the potential for one of those perfect games that I've been playing so much of since the stat overlay was implemented.  I'm imagining a back and forth battle that isn't decided until very late in the game...  Who's going to use their waves of giants better to control the HP flag?  Who's going to cordinate their teams flag locking and portal defense better.  I can't wait!  And then...

 

"Balance?"

 

Some whiney bitch on the other team wants to switch up the teams for some reason.  He's got the most experienced player in the lobby by far who has the highest win percentage but is imagining some way the teams are imbalanced.

 

Get over it people and just start the $%#@ing game.

Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting monarch_dodra, reply 5



I'm not saying stats are bad. On the contrary, it is good to know player levels to play funner games. I'm glad we have a stats system. I'm just sying that the way it is done puts so much emphasis on winning and losing. The only thing that counts is the output. Isn't there a way we could tweak it?
End of monarch_dodra's quote

I agree entirely.  I love having the overlay, but I want a real rating system that won't reward players for stacking teams.  Win / loss ratio is not a remotely accurate stat system, and is not used in any games (other than sports).  If we have a real rating system, such as the ELO system used in AOE, 0-30 rank system in WC3, and 0-20 rank system in CoH, you won't ever see 3 people with 70%+ wins clumping on a team against 3 25% wins, since they would have nothing to gain and everything to lose, and people won't be quite as picky about being on the "better" team.

Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Melric, reply 7

Until someone starts paying me to play this game, I do not want to play with a teammate that is poorly skilled if the opposition is competent across the board.  No matter how good a person is in this game, he cannot carry a team.  One feeder and the game is over.
End of Melric's quote

Agree with you 100%


Quoting Melric, reply 7
The best measure is a person's win/loss record coupled with the number of games they have played.  Is it perfect?  No, but what is the alternative?  This stat reset is playing havoc with getting a good game going.  I can't tell whether my teammates are competent or not anymore.
End of Melric's quote

Is win/lose ratio really the *Only* way? I think not. This is what I think we should change. A rank system were you go up a lot by winning hard games, and not at all for crushing noobs, would be, IMO, much better fitted.

Reply #11 from Demigod Forums Top

[quote who="monarch_dodra" reply="2" id="2469145"]
Quoting _Golgoth_, reply 1Its true. Its getting ridicoulus.

I was threatened to be kicked from a game for having a win rate less than 50%. I however had almost doubel the games of everyone else and when the game started I was obviously better and after getting 3 kills the other team rage quitted

People need to stop trying to win all the time. Its really bugging me. There should be an option to switch off access to stats
Can you imagine what playing this game with a ratio of 8% is like *shudders*?

Quoting monarch_dodra, reply 2

Quoting _Golgoth_, reply 1Its true. Its getting ridicoulus.

I was threatened to be kicked from a game for having a win rate less than 50%. I however had almost doubel the games of everyone else and when the game started I was obviously better and after getting 3 kills the other team rage quitted

People need to stop trying to win all the time. Its really bugging me. There should be an option to switch off access to stats
Can you imagine what playing this game with a ratio of 8% is like *shudders*?.
End of monarch_dodra's quote

I don't have to imagine I had a 8% win rate when I first joined, because wqueen of thorns and TB were never noob friendly.

Reply #12 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Melric, reply 7

Quoting monarch_dodra, reply 5
Quoting Frogboy, reply 4There is no pleasing everyone.

 
I'm not saying stats are bad. On the contrary, it is good to know player levels to play funner games. I'm glad we have a stats system. I'm just sying that the way it is done puts so much emphasis on winning and losing. The only thing that counts is the output. Isn't there a way we could tweak it?
Until someone starts paying me to play this game, I do not want to play with a teammate that is poorly skilled if the opposition is competent across the board.  No matter how good a person is in this game, he cannot carry a team.  One feeder and the game is over. 

The best measure is a person's win/loss record coupled with the number of games they have played.  Is it perfect?  No, but what is the alternative?  This stat reset is playing havoc with getting a good game going.  I can't tell whether my teammates are competent or not anymore.
End of Melric's quote
Do what everyone else is doing, just a premade game. They have seemed to dominate custom games.

Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 4
There is no pleasing everyone.

 
End of Frogboy's quote

 

This is true.  However, it should be kept in mind that the current solution may be making the problem it was intended to solve worse. It's also possible this is a case of the cure being worse than the disease (premades). I encourage you to keep an open mind on this issue.  When I play, I'm mostly playing Pantheon so I'm not the best person to judge this. 

If it turns out the current system is causing too many problems, replacing the current stats with an ELO style rating (which the website already does)  could be a better fit.  I wish people weren't such stat whores though, but I know better than to think I can change that.  What I don't like reading is players who are like me, not really caring about stats, becoming stat obsessed because they don't want to be hassled in the lobby.

Reply #14 from Demigod Forums Top

i stopped playing demigod because i have 38%  win/loss.

If i join a game i get kicked

if i dont get kicked my opponent team is premade and my team are random mates with at least one guy

whos leaving early, doesnt comunicate or running into death all the time.

I liked to play this great game but its frustrating to get a game startet and then have bad teammates.

I really would prefer to have the possibility to play unranked games just for fun!

Reply #15 from Demigod Forums Top

now why are people whining about premades there are 2 kinds of premades the first is the people who are friends or who just like o play together they dont try to get better teanm coordination between each other they just play for fun so thees nothing wring with this premade then theres the second kind of premade the ones who are jackasses who actually come together or find each other out who want to play for the soul purpose of beating others for win percentage these you dont want to play with

Reply #16 from Demigod Forums Top

plus not all premades are made equally atleast half of the people who play regularly together lose half of the games they play together and they are against pugs lots

Reply #17 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 4
There is no pleasing everyone.

 
End of Frogboy's quote

There absolutely is. What you do is give users lots of options so that they can do whatever they want.

I have no earthly idea why there are no unranked matches :\

It would be such a benefit to new players because they could get their number of games up without getting 30% win rates. Also, every FUCKING game wouldn't be Beast/Erb/Oak.

Reply #18 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting OMG_Splitshadow, reply 17

Quoting Frogboy, reply 4There is no pleasing everyone.

 
There absolutely is. What you do is give users lots of options so that they can do whatever they want.

I have no earthly idea why there are no unranked matches

It would be such a benefit to new players because they could get their number of games up without getting 30% win rates. Also, every FUCKING game wouldn't be Beast/Erb/Oak.
End of OMG_Splitshadow's quote

He made this post back right after the overlay was released (I think about 2 weeks afterwards). Anyway, the community had mostly been crying for an easier way to get "balanced" matches, so Stardock (not GPG) spent a lot of time to develop this new feature. Then everyone bitched about it. That's why he posted that.

But unranked would have fixed the problem as a whole, I agree.

Reply #19 from Demigod Forums Top

The best solution is matchmaking based on ELO IMO.  No more picking opponents or picking maps.  Use the same sort of system WC3 uses.

Two game types (assume 3v3 expand to other formats if player population allows):

Arranged Team: Get your group together, hit start game, matchmaking server finds as appropriate a match as possible.

Random Team: Hit start game, it finds 5 opponents closest in ELO, game begins.

There will still be jerks, still be leavers and laggers, but it removes the jockeying for position that is done in the lobby. You should never have a ranking be based on games where you can choose your opponents because then it encourages gaming the system.  You can still have custom games, just make them unranked with no stat tracking attached.

Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top

Do you mean Elo as in the statistical rating system that FIDE uses for chess tournaments?

Reply #21 from Demigod Forums Top

its simple.....there should be an "unranked" option....nothing more...nothing less

Reply #22 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting shiva7663, reply 20
Do you mean Elo as in the statistical rating system that FIDE uses for chess tournaments?
End of shiva7663's quote

Huh, I do mean Elo... I always thought that was an acronym for something.  Wikipedia tells me it was named after Arpad Elo, my mistake.  In any case, yes, a ranking system akin to that system is the best for matchmaking IME. 

Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top

Seeing as people are commenting still, why not.  I don't think we are going to see any unranked options or revisions to the matchmaking system at this point.  Of course, most of us would be thrilled with any sort of matchmaking options that balance based on ELO, rank, etc (not light and dark).  However, with the current player base, consider what would happen.  Experienced players would be teamed up with newer ones.  Odds are 1 team would end up with a weak player and that would determine the outcome of most games.  Some higher ranked players would just instantly quit (remember that brilliant overlay screen for pantheon that would show you who you were connecting to even before the game loaded?) at the start of the game because they got stuck with a new player... and so on.  It would certainly work for some of us to a degree, but definitely not all. 

But back to the unranked idea - what does that get us exactly at this point?  Our games wouldn't impact our win loss ratio?  But people still try to balance games based on win loss % + games played, right?  Or does the unranked option change all that in your mind somehow?  Or is all you are caring about is the impact to ladder rank?  I still wouldn't want to play in a game with a new player on my team if everyone on the other team was experienced, even if it wasn't ranked.  And that's just because its not fun or interesting... just predictable - the experienced team will focus and wail on the new guy. There are apparently still a few people out there that care about the ladder and take some pride in that, but I've given up caring about that quite some time ago (back when you beat AI to rise to the top of the ladder in pantheon, for instance - or that a person could simply 1v1 and exploit as much as they wanted to reach the top 10 - or that, if you are patient, you can just choose erebus in pantheon and wait around for some sucker or new player, or stack teams, or blahblahblah). 

Anyway, I was a big fan of the unranked game idea and getting working matchmaking back when we had a population > 200.  Now, we all pretty much bump into the same folks based on time zone.  I'm not really sure what we'd get out of having unranked matches now.

Reply #24 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting ceejaex, reply 22


Huh, I do mean Elo... I always thought that was an acronym for something.  Wikipedia tells me it was named after Arpad Elo, my mistake.  In any case, yes, a ranking system akin to that system is the best for matchmaking IME. 
End of ceejaex's quote

Oh, that makes far more sense. I thought you wanted Stardock to call in Jeff Lynne to rate players.  :thumbsup:

Reply #25 from Demigod Forums Top

any stat system can and will be exploited. The only solution is to get people to grow up and take a loss with some dignity. So in other words there practically is no solution.