A Modest Proposal

A mod that would really make things.. interesting

from Sins Forums
Hey guys. Absolutely love the game, but I have a proposal for a mod some people might be interested in.

It seems to me a lot of peoples complaints stem from phase lanes. The AI plays 'hop scotch' as one person called it, Siege fleets and pirates can crop up in a matter of seconds, and the only real action happens in a planets gravity well.

My proposal is for modders to remove phase lanes all together, replacing them with real space. Sacrilege you say? Listen for a moment, theres a method to my madness. The proposal is to replace phase lanes with 'space lanes', wide tunnels of real time game space possibly the thickness of a planets gravity well or thicker. This would solve numerous peoples complaints, balance issues, and make the game more realistic. Maybe phase lanes are better suited for late game tech advances like the phase tunnels.


Pro's
#1: Allows for blockades and deep space outpost building

If you had an empire in space, would you leave this big undefended corridor from planet to planet, or would you leave a few capital ships in play, maybe a space station (Deep Space 9, anyone?) It would add a new layer of strategy to the game. Suddenly your forced to consider defense on the 'roadways' to your planet, not just the world itself. To prevent abuse, building range could be limited to your culture influence, which would make culture more important.

#2: Deals with hop skotch tactic

If the AI can't retreat instantly at the drop of a hat, this issue is mute. You can chase their fleet right down the tunnel, blasting back and forth. They might even have a blockade to retreat behind. People can still run, but it eliminates this idea of these massive fleets of ships passing each other by without so much as a shot fired.

#3: Lengthens/Deepens Game

If you have to blast your way through layers of defenses to reach a planet, suddenly diplomacy becomes more important. It also adds a new layer of tactics to the game in the question of 'do you send your fleet in to annihilate everything, or do I use blockade runner ships to speed in and hit them at their core'.

Cons:

#1: Longer game

Ships having to move from planet to planet will take a fair bit of time. It won't be instant gratification by any means. Maybe ships could have the option to phase jump around in friendly territory and only have to use normal engines in disputed space.

#2: Strengthens Defensive Players

This really isn't a con. Turtling is a legitimate strategy, but some players will see people being too defensive as a negative.


We know the game engine can support this level of activity, and we know its not out of the realm of possibility. Ships can move freely outside a gravity well in pursuit of a target, so obviously game space exists there, its just a matter of allowing the player to issue orders there and colonize it. The only thing that really would have to change is the cap for ship building would need to be greatly heightened.. which it should anyway. If your playing a custom game with 16 players (and I have), 2000 ships is NOT enough to 'win' in any sense of the word.

This concludes my modest proposal, I look forward to any comments, but flames will be used to heat my house.
35,223 views 24 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
It's not very modest, other than the fact you're basically suggesting that it be modded and not addressed by the developers.
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
what if you gave the phase lanes a timer?

if you use the lane it can be used for a few mins this would stop the enemy warping to your planet as soon as you turn up at thers :)
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
very good idea man. plus it would create incentive to "upgrade your system with phase lanes"
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
Well, thats something I feel is missing from the game, is the ability to colonize deep space. That gas planet would be perfect for an outpost with a few missile defense turret emplacements.

Imagine being able to build pirate like outposts in empty space.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Great idea, the fact that the AI just jumps in and out between planets is very irritating. It would be nice to pursue an enemy and fight them back to thier home planet.

I don't like that deep space cannot be colonized. It would be nice if you could have an open lane of space between planets with free floating repair stations and defense outposts along the way.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
It's not very modest, other than the fact you're basically suggesting that it be modded and not addressed by the developers.
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I see you've never read Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" :P. This was far too good of an idea to deserve that title :P. I like it, the possibilities are quite vast. Perhaps you could even have a 'Civilian Station' building of some kind that would allow you a modest credit income without the need of a planet.

Hmm...how about this for a system, once you capture 2 planets connected by space lanes (make some story about how space outside the discovered lanes is too dangerous and only the Vasari with their specialized phase gates can use it or something) the lane between them comes under your control and you get 1 construction frigate, it would be a lot like having a planet whose gravity well was a rectangle between the two planets and which had very low logistic and decent tactical slots. It would still be better to reinforce planets, and the tactics between worlds wouldn't equal the tactics at that world, but it would be a good backup.

That would make the Vasari phase gate's really interesting as it would open up a new space lane to build in. Interesting...there are too many good mod ideas for this game :P.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
The game could use some portable weapon systems. One consideration might be a transport ship that could be converted to a tactical item. the ship would take up fleet capacity until it is converted and once converted that is it.. where you put it is where it stays! if various locations like gas giants were given an absolute number of tactical slots this would enable use of the space and still maintain balance as your limited in the number of units... eliminates spamming..

The method

1. Build a tactical weapon transport ship. Cost to build ship is Fleet points used =10 dollars=500 metal=200 crystal=100

2.Move the ship the desired location.

3.Click on “convert unit to” and select weapon system

4.Fleet points are returned, and the cost of that weapon in dollars, metal and crystal points is now deducted from your account (that is in addition to the cost of having built the ship). If you do not have enough resources to build it that’s just tough, should have thought ahead!

5.This unit is there to use. You cannot move or change it in any way, build times are the same as it would be otherwise.

Just imagine, you take 5 weapon transports with you to a star, now you use it to build a hanger, a repair station a PJI and 2 cannons. Back that up with a few ships and you have an effective blockade to stop incoming scout ships, no mapping of your systems and that means better fog of war, they send in a fleet and they would manage to get past you but it gives you time to send in a larger fleet to hit them with, they jump into an asteroid belt and you hit them some more, now they jump to that gas planet, still more damage and now when they get to your world, you have weakened them and had time to move your resources to better defend yourself.

This allows you to put off building tactical systems until you know your going to need them and gives you better intelligence as to where to place them.

Just a thought
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
The question is. We know the game can SUPPORT that much activity, but can it be modded to do it.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Just remember people before you post negatives that this is a MOD so no one is forcing you to to use it. Back to the point I personally LOVE this idea in every way seeing as I don't usually enjoy attacking people... I am more peace loving (Unless thier is a super wep then I just mass build it (like nukes in Starcraft) to pwn the enemy :) Anyway aslong as you can only travel to planets like with Phase Lanes (Not being able to fly from thier core to your core) So basicly it is like phase lanes but a bit slower and allows pursuit of enemys :) Maybe event a high tech blockade thing that will restrict access via that lane unless the owner decides to open the blockade or the enemy gets a sizable fleet to destroy it :) It will also be perfect for chock points and what not. especially if the choke points are Gas Giants :P Anyway this is an AMAZING MOD I would use for sure!
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top


I see you've never read Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal"
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I have. I fail to see the comparison, since Johnathan Swift was being sarcastic and the poster is very serious.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
The only issue is, I have no skill in mod making. I think the developers could do it no problem and make it an option (Phase lanes enable/disable, Building Restrictions on/off).

The only question is, is there any chance of the developers actually doing any of this? I've heard rumors of the Stardock team doing a lot towards what the community wants, but I mean, the product is out.

And we don't know exactly how moddable the game is. In THEORY, it shouldn't be that hard. I could see it being a few checks.

#1: Change the action when right clicking on an enemy homeworld/gravity well from 'Phase Jumping' to normal movement.

#2: Make interspacial regions their own gravity wells, only use a parallelogram to define the 'space lane' rather than a circle. Maybe even give them a colony in the center that determines who controls it, like, whoever controls the colony controls the lane IF the engine requires all structures to be built within a colonizable region. Otherwise, set it so that you can build within your 'influence'. So if your influence is 60%, you build 60% into the lane. If your influence falls past your structures, they start deteriorating

#3: Make the action when right clicking on a friendly world phase jumping unless you like, left click. Or maybe you need to build a phase jump network. This could even add an element of strategy (do you build a phase link with another empire for trade purposes, but risk an attack)
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
Hmmm very nice ideas :) I always did love Space Empires IV with the option to allow for no warp points and use a tech to open up wormholes to where ever I wanted :D Until the enemy got the Tech then I get pwned cuz thiers no stock ships and I suck at designing lol :) But the idea is still awsome especially when applied to SINS. Plus its an OPTIONAL MOD so no one HAS to use it which will be great for people who don't like the idea :)
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

I see you've never read Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" . This was far too good of an idea to deserve that title
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There goes any need for a crack about eating babies :)

I have. I fail to see the comparison, since Johnathan Swift was being sarcastic and the poster is very serious.
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Given how impossible it is to mod his idea in, I hope he wasn't being serious.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
Actually I was being serious. What makes you think its impossible? All it would require is a change to actions to have ships move physically from point A to point B, and to have the game populate a gravity well where a phase lane should be.

I've never done a mod before, but I'm tempted to actually attempt this. I think I've already figured out how moons would be possible.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
Nice idea, but i don't think it will work game-wide.

I think it would work very nice in addition to the existing mechanic. So say, 80% of the connections are normal phase lanes, but some areas of space have weird gravimetric disturbances (insert more techno stuff) where the phase drives can't be used. between these planets normal engines would have to be used. Naturally these areas would be (in)conveniently located at strategic areas.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
Well, my theory is this. You can only not phase jump between contested boundaries. You must own both planets to phase jump, otherwise its normal travel. Also, you can build in phase lanes so that you can prepare for when it becomes contested.
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
Here is another idea. Why dont you make the planets actually revolve around the current star? When certain planets are in range of each other, you would have a certain amount of time to get your ships through the phase lane before it closes again. If you didnt make it through, you would just have to wait for the next revolution.

EDIT: Although, I dont think the current game engine could be modded to that extent. Sins 2 anyone?
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top

Actually I was being serious. What makes you think its impossible? All it would require is a change to actions to have ships move physically from point A to point B, and to have the game populate a gravity well where a phase lane should be.

I've never done a mod before, but I'm tempted to actually attempt this. I think I've already figured out how moons would be possible.
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Because the coding is based around phase lanes / phase space, you can't just re-write it from the data files we've been given, you'd need access to the source code.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
Right, which presumably is coming if the game is totally moddable. It can't happen with what we have NOW maybe, but I heard someone mention the ability to do scripts was coming.
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
Not quite what I was hoping for as a resolution to phase lanes. I agree with many people here, that the phase lanes really constrict the gameplay to planets and that deep space is virtually ignored and you can't do anything in the gravity wells of gas giants or in an asteroid belt. Now I'm not talking colonization, I'm talking just build a space station that has maybe a max of 10-30 population (in game) that can support just a few basic logistic/tactical structures each.

When I picked up the game the only way it let me down, is that I wanted to be able to move my ships freely outside of gravity wells. I still love the game for what it is, but miss the additional tactics and abilities that this would open up for players. As we know, tech abilities show advancing fleets from multiple jumps away when fully upgraded, so how are you supposed to pull off a sneak attack? Why can't I just ignore the phase lanes, and on impulse power (see there's the big drawback right there) make my way slowly to an enemy planet without them knowing until the fleet appears outside the edge of their gravity well. Obviously that makes things much more dynamic and completely changes the gameplay, but it does have its' own drawbacks and benefits. If you're attacked when your fleet is in deep space, its going to take them a LONG time to respond to any threat.

I really like some of the ideas here, but somehow I don't see them happening. My own idea would be along the lines of "do it yourself" phase lanes. And that at the start of the game you don't know any phase lanes because you only have your home planet to rely on. You'd have to send scouts into deep space and when they found a nearby planet a phase lane could be created once any ship has discovered a system (or near to space stations in deep space or other objects of interest) I would refer to them as the nav buoys that one might have seen in X-wing alliance. An "invisible" way-point that links to nearby planet and essentially provides ships with the nav data they need to make a jump between the two systems. (You get the idea, they don't even need to be a physical in game object). Phase travel is only available once you've done that and there's a limit of the distance that the points can be from each other to be linked (Something that could be upgraded in the civil research tree). Sure it makes for longer games and has some other drawbacks, but it also changes some of the fundamentals of gameplay and allows the game to be much more dynamic.

At the very least, let me build a space station around a gas giant or something. Seriously, whats to stop me from having a capital ship transport a construction worker out there and have him build any sort of platform he wanted to? Thats my major gripe, other than that I'm a happy customer.