well, yes, the vasari were presented as vastly superior in technology, so I too expected their ships to be a lot stronger. if you keep the cost side balanced, it should be possible to make a distinction here AND keep all the phase space and manipulation stuff. protoss also had way more powerful units than zerg, but that didnt automatically make them dominant in a game, because the just had fewer of them.

Schod, you're right, the high level techs are very powerful and the vasari will probably be a race that is able to stand up to the tec, but making the above adjustments doesnt change that fact. if vasari ships are just more expensive for what they do, they can be twice as powerful and the vasari will still not win a head on contest and you can have your different play style. and me too, since that does sound intriguing to play more or using these gates to keep the upper hand.

and just to get one short message to summarise what people do and will feel. races have to be instantly different in a strategy game or it will cause a bit of disappointment. it shouldnt be that you have to look into all the ships abilites and techs to find the diferences, they should be apparent from the very start and cover all or almost all aspects of the game. lets see ... there is gameplay difference and I would dare say we have that at the moment, but there is also psychological, perceived difference and that is missing imo, just the feeling that this is something different from the first units you control up until the ulitmate techs.

ps. does anyone else wonder why there is no lvl 15 military tech? capships crews don't count. maybe we are still going to get something there. or the dark fleet reinforcement is just in the wrong tab.



no, that would be way too powerful. think of it, even with the combined forces of all the other races put together they still couldnt really stop them, so essentially it would take the advent and tec combined to even consider beating the vasari, which would just be too strong.

The Vasari would not be too strong if changes were made that accomodated stronger economy/production for the TEC while the Vasari were stronger in individual ships but could not afford to field fleets as large as the TEC (perhaps a penalty on maximum fleet size or just significantly higher fleep capacity costs per Vasari ship)

I was really expecting to see a Vasari cap ship be able to take on 2-3 TEC capital ships on it's own. They should be absolute juggernauts, but the TEC will have the advantage of massive numbers and better resource accumulation so they can more easily replenish their fleets to keep up the fight.

You could also compare it as the Borg vs. The Federation. One Borg Cube was wiping the floor with multiple Federation vessels.

well if you keep bringing in sci fi analogies. I'd say the tec could be b5's earth alliance and the vasari would be the minmbari. in their war the minmbari also wiped the floor with the ea's ships but the still lost some due to the sheer number of opponents fleets.

2 to 3 would be awesome, imagine a single ship cost 100 fleet points.

hmm, one thing that I find strange is that its so much emphasised that the kol is the first true tec warship and yet it isn't all that superior to the other capships. its different, but with all the hype would expect something more distinctively stronger. so ... can it be balanced if also inside a race the capships are a bit stronger/ weaker overall or is that a terrible idea? maybe have two tiers, one with the normal ones and a second one that needs to be researched with more powerful ones.

Yeah had the same thought. Though it might be too strong, but the Vasari should win any 1v1 capital ship battle.

see, you expect to march in unexpected and unmatched and play in a vasly lopsided game. congrats, you should go play protoss.


you guys EXPECT EXPECT EXPECT off of information, you saw what you wanted to see, your perception set. now you're angry that the truth is better than your myth.

no NOT special maps, as in NOT on your 10 people, 10 planets maps, otherwise they're fine.

see thats where your issue is, you're a rusher, the Vasari are NOT rushers, besides how would that be fair when the vasari player gets a free cap?

you know what, I'm making this thread a lot more relevant

RENAME!!!

we wanna play the Vasari as intended.


No were not angry (well atleast not me), we just have a different view point on how the Vasari should be.



Talking about anger... LOL now your just childish

they ARE as intended, just not as you visioned.
you visioned the classical stereotypical, uber powerful expensive race, I did to. this is better, go cry off in a corner.

well how can I put this, uh
your viewpoint is wrong.

Multi you make this huge deal about how they arent the tanks you imagined from absolutely NO hints that suggest it, and you dont expect me to mock you.

oh grow up, of course I'm going to mock you.

For those concerned about upping the power of a Vasari capital ship at the start compared with the TEC:

You could counterbalance by any of the following:

-Reduce extra support vessels @ start of game for Vasari (i.e. they don't start with extra skirmishers)

-Provide the TEC with extra support frigates or give them an additional Cap ship, etc.

I also find many of the special abilities of the Vasari ships to be pretty worthless when compared with those used by the TEC.

The TEC are presented as a trader race, yet field these massively powerful warships with special abilities that increase their damage.

The Vasari were presented as a tech superior race that was bent on domination and yet the majority of their cap ships special abilities do not cause damage. And the ones that weaken or subdue enemy vessels don't appear to last very long when applied.

...
again, the Vasari are not meant to be fielded into combat unless they MASSIVELY outnumber their opponent, thats why their abilities are powerful and widespread, but short.

Schod, site some sources before going and saying "OMG ITS SUPPOSED BE DIS WAY WTF". You lose the topic fight, so you rename it. You're acting like a 7 year old.

He might be 7...

well "intended" wasnt the right word, should have been visualized.


No im not, as im not the only one who has this viewpoint of the Vasari


"No hints" aint true, as the Lore does point in the other direction.

mocking ppl just makes you look stupid and it for sure doesnt make you sound more convincing to help your case.

best thread ev4ar!

so the fact the devs made it this way is irrelevant? my god what could I be thinking? lore is not a source, fact is a source, a primary source. the devs didnt MISTAKENLY make it the way it is. at least I hope not.

An entertaining thread!

Sounds to me like he has an instinct for tactics, most people are either adaptive or just copycats. Very few people can actually form their own strategies. Sources from people that probably aren't among the very few are rather irrelevant, developers rarely know how their sides can be used to anything resembling a full extent for instance. Thus the burning need for balance patch after balance patch to get even the best fine tuned to something resembling perfection.

No question, it's a rough start and TEC will probably win every game on a small map without even trying. I think a medium solar system would be pushing it though. A multi-star galaxy though, they have no prayer. The Vasari are technologically superior.

When you get phase gates up, you'll suddenly be outproducing your production limitations in free ships, and you can defend any planet with your entire fleet. The TEC are forced to split their fleets, which are extremely powerful all in one place, but really bite it when outnumbered. The Vasari, using the technology of phase space manipulation, automatically win at this point. It's actually some pretty horrific balance right now. With one tech they go from easy kill and can't attack but can defend long enough on a big enough map, to guaranteed win that can't lose unless they stop playing.

This really isn't a complicated thing. The TEC are invincible in equal numbers, but can't stick everything in one place, the Vasari can, with a level 9 tech.

Also, grandgnu, what's not powerful about 50% cooldown rate and 250% shield regeneration combined with anti-matter draining weaponry? The two main warships are not comparable strengths. The Vasari version will spank the shit out of the Kol.

Hmm, the fact the devs made the Vesari like this.
Lets see: Designing one race and then copy its whole structure to another and change the play style via the abiliites is much easier to do and balance than designing two unique races.

Lets look at the Protoss and the Terrans in Starcraft. They have a similar structure as the Terrans at the ground level but their abilities and units in mid- and late game are completely different.
I'm not saying they should make them like the Protoss or TEC and Vesari are completely the same. But it currently feels like they "just" swapped the graphics and did the distinction via the stats. With fine-tuned stats it might work but it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

It would have been quite easy to realise a bit more unique concepts idea-wise. But my sad guess they didn't have the time and won't have time to change it.

you must not be paying attention and/or playing a game longer than 5 minutes, so I'm not going to bother with the glaringly obvious differences that you dont notice. I reitterate (with significant support) that the Vasari and TEC are far more differentiated than the starcraft trio.

Read please. I acknowledge that they are different due to the abilities. The problem is that several other people and me are trying have an argument but you're just saying the same thing over and over with the same rhetoric that I guess should be eloquent but isn't. On top of it you do all of this while being rude without any reason.

You see what distinctive means here? We're both human but very different:

I discuss, you pretend to know.

its because everything you bring you that you *think* is exempt from my rhetoric, isnt. see I'm rather good at summing up a whole argument in a very short and simple...

goddammit I'm a swordmaster of Occam's razor.

if you hadnt noticed the game is almost ENTIRELY based on researched abilities, if you think that "special abilities and research" is a tiny fraction of the races, and is not in fact, all of what they are, you need to...

play a game longer than 5 minutes or take more of that riddlin.

They aren't the Protoss...

They are all General Grievous!

All this talk of stereotypes and cannons and such has neglected the fact that we needed to construct additional pylons about two hours ago and are out of vespene gas.







ahahahahahahahaha