Define "America"

I'm back, with an article on anti-Americanism (after being repeatedly accused of it)

I haven't been blogging for a while, thanks to my university/work schedule (although I did get a good nap in calculus today). So here I am, popping my head in with a new article. It's no secret that I harbour negative feelings towards the US government for many reasons (must...not...say...Allende...we've been down that road before), and it's no secret that I don't like Bush. And it's also no secret that I have been accused of anti-Americanism or siding with terrorists by pretty much everyone here to the right of Ted Kennedy. But I have one question: Can you define this America you speak of? Is it a chunk of land between Mexico and the 49th? Is it a bunch of people in DC and their policies? Is it the people of America? Is it a democratic ideal? A capitalist one? Perhaps an imperialist one? Is it a system of government? Or is it a symbol for something? What does the flag mean to you?

I'll start, with my country. To me, Canada stands for tolerance, peace, living together, and looking out for the little guy (and the McKenzie brothers) . We believe in multiculturalism and tolerance, we believe in letting you be, but when you are down, gicing you a helping hand. Canada is not a flag or a chunk of land to me, it is an ideal of tolerance. But that is not to say that we are without problems. I often disagree with our government, or our crappy neoliberal Prime Minister (although I prefer him to Stephen Harper), and even the general population. And I also know we have committed our share of atrocities, especially towards the indiginous peoples in these lands, but I hope we can move forward together as a nation, united in peace and understanding. These ideals remain strong in Canada, and are the fabric of the nation.

So, anyone out there brave enough to answer my question (before this sinks into some sort of all out brawl over Iraq)?
15,030 views 21 replies
Reply #1 Top
Summed up in here.

Isn't the American identity defined by the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution?

Americans ideals -- the ideals summed up in such famous phrases as "all men are created equal" and "liberty and justice for all" -- have often had a problematic relation to American reality. It is true that the American system of government was founded on such ideals; but it is false to say that America is nothing but its system of government.

Our Founding Fathers did not create something out of nothing. They created the Union, but they did not create its constituent states, nor their common language, customs, institutions, and law, nor the generations of history predating their own. America is a nation, and any nation, whatever its weaknesses, is something stronger and more solid than any "proposition."

The American nation was constituted by the British colonists who founded it: white in race, Anglo-Saxon in culture, and Protestant in religion. It was also marked by a certain amount of inherited class-stratification, which was effaced, sooner or later, in the Revolution and its aftermath (to be replaced, of course, by new forms of class-stratification).

American ideals, on the other hand, are universal in scope, and thus inclusive of all classes, and of non-WASPs of all races, cultures, and religions. Indeed, American ideals might someday (maybe a thousand years from now) prevail throughout the world, and then America itself would be distinguished only by being their first and foremost exemplar -- if, that is, America is really nothing but an abstract, normative "proposition".

American nationality and American ideals are not irreconcilable as long as one recalls that the latter, with their formal expressions and embodiments in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, are integral to the distinctive traditions of the American branch of Anglo-Saxondom. Ideals do not exist in any sort of Platonic realm separate from reality: they are both conceived and applied within pre-existent history. The Constitution is our own unique constitution, though it has been imitated many times -- the imitations were always failures.

The American political system is inconceivable without the traditions of parliamentarism, private enterprise, the common law, etc., inherited from England. But then the common experience of the War of Independence, and the common system of government established during and after the war, separated the American branch from the rest. It also made one nation out of thirteen colonies that had each been distinct, to some extent, from all other Anglo-Saxon peoples since their respective foundings.

Now, while Americanism is not sufficient to define America, it is certainly necessary. Struggles to realize American ideals -- the Revolution, the Civil War, the civil-rights movement -- have helped to make us who we are. Consider that the only true grassroots movements on the political Right are dedicated to the right to life and the right to keep and bear arms; both movements routinely invoke American precedents -- abolitionism and the Revolution, respectively. The political Left, on the other hand, has gotten so far mainly because it claims to champion equal rights. Of course this is only one of the big lies the Left has managed to make stick by sheer force of repetition; but conservatives are usually reluctant to challenge it.

Isn't America a nation of immigrants?

Taken literally, this question is obviously absurd: the vast majority of Americans were born and raised in this country. Neither is it true that all native Americans are ultimately descended from immigrants. One must distinguish between immigrants and the original settlers who founded this country in the first place.

The British colonists were the mold into which all latecomers were set. Over time, the original stock has been diluted by influxes of other peoples; but (until recently) the original Americans, the first-comers and nation-builders, maintained their cultural hegemony. The Anglo-Saxons are the solvent of the "melting pot": they provided the language, the system of law and government, and most of the manners and customs that continue to define America as a nation. The newcomers' additions to American culture are trivial in comparison to what they gave up.

It is ludicrous to pretend that Americans, whatever their ancestry, are anything but Anglo-Saxons. While there are still residual ethnic groups that have not yet become completely Americanized, these distinct ethnicities are ultimately bound to disappear through intermarriage (unless the process is impeded by anti-national public policies).

I, for example, am a typical American mongrel. My name may be German, but only 1/4 of my heredity is; the only German I know I learned in school, and I've forgotten most of it; I don't drink beer and wouldn't be caught dead in a pair of Lederhosen.

The idea of the "melting pot" and the conception of America as a "nation of immigrants" were conceived in response to the challenge of assimilating the great wave of immigration that began in the late nineteenth century. Their purpose was to promote the integration of these immigrants by redefining and expanding the American nationality to include them. The ideas worked reasonably well (in conjunction with other, less glamorous pressures -- social, economic, and political) in making the newcomers Americans in spirit as well as residence. It also helped that the inflow was finally cut down to a trickle, in the 1920s.

Even so, our experience with mass immigration was never an unmixed blessing: its side effects included slums, political corruption, and organized crime. Moreover, the "melting pot" was detrimental to the precise extent that it worked as advertised -- i.e., diluting American nationality and forming a debased and deracinated mass-culture.

Mass-immigration apologists try to reassure us of the power of this mass-culture as a solvent, both at home and abroad, and in a way they are right: the American culture-industry permeated the world throughout the twentieth century, because it was already aimed at the lowest common denominator of mankind. But universal appeal comes through the sacrifice of what is profound to what is superficial, of what is specifically ours to what is common to all mankind. If the whole world were merged into one Americanoid pop-culture, we would gain the world at the cost of our soul.

Nowadays, in the name of "multiculturalism," the "nation of immigrants" myth is being used deliberately to subvert American patriotism and unity: to prevent the assimilation of the new wave of immigrants and Balkanize our country into a "mosaic" of ethnic enclaves. These minority groups are the political clients of the liberal/Left political-cultural elite, whose aim is to destroy what's left of the native culture and nationality of America.

The idea is that if we're only a "nation of immigrants," then those who came before have no right to expect latecomers to accept our ways or even speak our language ... and moreover, we have to subsidize our own invasion by giving welfare to immigrants and providing them public services (education, ballots, census forms, etc.) in their own languages ... and we are even supposed to censor ourselves vigilantly, so as never to give offense to foreign ethnicities and "undocumented" (i.e., illegal) immigrants. To this, any self-respecting and patriotic American has to wonder why we don't just kick out all the immigrants, and the liberal/Left traitors with them.

What about the Indians?

The Indians have the problematic status of being in but not of the USA. They are not Americans, never have been, and should never be. They have their own tribes, customs, languages, and even territories -- severely reduced and attenuated, to be sure, but still holding on precariously. The best thing they could do for themselves, and that we could do for them, is to make their reservations completely and absolutely sovereign nations. Let them regain control of their own destinies.

There are, otherwise, only two alternatives. One, the more tragic, is for them to finally lose their last precarious existence as peoples, and disappear into the general American populace. The other, which is simply pathetic, is for them to remain the objects of liberal solicitude, poster-boys of oppression, dependent on the white man's government. But this alternative really is no alternative, for it reduces them to clients of white liberals, alongside all the other oppressed classes and grievance-mongers, living by the white liberals' standards and expectations. The façade of tribal existence will remain, but at the sacrifice of any meaningful tribal life and identity.

What about the blacks?

Black Americans, unlike the Indians, have not even a memory of any language other than English, nor any religion other than Christianity. Culturally, they are entirely American, distinguished only by regional and caste variations. How many "African Americans" would really want to become Africans? The experiment was tried: it produced the state of Liberia, which was not much of a success, any way you look at it. I suspect that blacks who play at being Africans -- assuming African names, wearing African garb, celebrating the pseudo-African holiday of "Kwanzaa" -- would change their tune very quickly if faced with the prospect of being deported to the "motherland."

Before 1964, the goal of the civil-rights movement was to repair a violation of American ideals; within ten years, this movement had repudiated American ideals, and continues to do so. There is no room here to discuss the whole sad story of how the movement changed course so abruptly. Suffice it to say that the second Reconstruction, which completed the work of the first, was regarded as an exercise in egalitarian levelling rather than nation-building.

In retrospect, it is astonishing how quickly the ideals of racial equality and integration were jettisoned. In their place, the system of "affirmative action" was set up, which replaced the Jeffersonian "all men are created equal" with the Orwellian "some are more equal than others." Blacks are supposed to remain a separate caste, just as they had been under segregation -- but now they are a specially-protected caste.

The proponents of this social-engineering project never noticed the absurdity of trying to achieve a society free of racism by re-institutionalizing legal discrimination. Supposedly, "affirmative action," with its whole apparatus of quotas and equality-police, would end as soon as blacks achieved statistical parity with whites: i.e., as soon as every neighborhood, school, and workplace in the nation was exactly 12% black (or whatever their exact proportion might be). Of course "affirmative action" could never reach this never-quite-stated goal; and even if it did, the whole coercive machinery would have to stay in place to make sure that no "imbalance" ever reappeared.

The result has been to preserve the distinctiveness of blacks as an ethnic group, indeed reaffirming it. If blacks ever ceased to be recognizably "black" (i.e., by intermarriage and cultural assimilation, which would inevitable accompany each other), then the game would be up.

The blacks (and especially their self-appointed spokesmen in the "civil rights" lobby) stood to gain political and economic advantages through the white-guilt racket. And of course, the white liberals would never dream of losing their most reliable voting bloc and their heartwarming sense of "anti-racist" sanctimony. So the tacit, unholy bargain was made: a separate black minority would be preserved, black "leaders" would benefit from political pull and immunity from public criticism, and white liberals would take black votes and use the bogeyman of "racism" to denounce all non-liberals -- forever and ever.

All this is monstrous, from the point of view of human decency and simple justice. From the nationalist point of view, it artificially separates one part of the nation from the rest, legitimating that separation with racist and anti-American propaganda.

Is the South a distinct nation?

The South's racial caste system was the essential difference, the "peculiar institution," which made it a distinct society. It was to defend and promote this system that the South attempted to secede from the Union. Now this system has been destroyed, and few (if any) Southerners will openly defend it; even apologists for the Confederacy pretend that secession was an end in itself.

Of course this is a lie: the states' declarations of secession made no secret that slavery was the issue, and the Confederate constitution explicitly forbade any "law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves." Moreover, that constitution established a "permanent federal government" -- echoing the "perpetual Union" formed by the Articles of Confederation -- and the Confederacy tried by force to keep the counties of western Virginia from seceding in turn.

The Old South was dedicated to the proposition that natural rights, and government with the consent of the governed, are principles that apply to some men and not others; it claimed the right to deny rights. Southernism was -- and is -- nothing but a perversion of Americanism.

Are the Northeast and the Left Coast still American in any real cultural sense?

America is becoming ever more polarized, both culturally and politically, between Left and Right. Liberals feel no loyalty to America, its traditions, its institutions; they are hostile and contemptuous towards anyone who does remain loyal to America; they are dishonest, dishonorable, and unscrupulous; they enjoy quasi-totalitarian control of most of our cultural institutions, and despite setbacks, they still cling to our political institutions with flagrant disregard for legal and constitutional propriety.

Opposition to liberalism has grown steadily over the past two generations, as more and more Americans have become aware of, and angry at, what the liberals are doing to our country. The rise of conservatism and the Christian Right, the gradual return of the GOP to majority-party status, the proliferation of neo-Nazi groupuscules, sporadic outbursts of domestic terrorism, the mushroom growth of the militia movement, all testify to a stiffening American resistance to liberalism and alienization.

To a large extent, this political and cultural schism is also geographical. But the New Yorkers had enough sanity to elect Rudy Giuliani -- a man who, though liberal to the core, has just enough brains and spine to enact one conservative policy and prove it spectacularly successful. The Californians voted overwhelmingly against illegal immigration, bilingualism, and racial discrimination. And it was Arkansas that gave us Bill "You Can Tell I'm Lying Because My Lips Are Moving" Clinton, and Tennessee that gave us Al "My Mind Is Unbalanced" Gore.

The relative un-Americanism of the Northeast and Left Coast is due to historical accident: our cultural institutions are more thickly clustered in these regions, and these institutions are the Petri dishes of the anti-culture. Here we cannot answer the question of why the educated classes are predominantly liberal; we can only wonder how long a country or civilization can last if its educated classes are as hostile to it as ours are.


Reply #2 Top
Well, I can only speak for myself.. but here goes.

"America" (speaking from a national and not a continent standpoint) are the 50 States and the territories. As "Americans", we are the contradiction.

We are the land of the free that welcomes restrictions on freedom... in order to ensure the most freedom for the most people.
We are the home of the brave... though we are the first to put anyone brave enough to stand apart in their place.
We are the melting pot... though we tend to seperate, often by the most strangely arbitrary demographics.
We are the war drum calling cadence to the peace march.
We are the beacon of rights and human dignity... and the criminal who recognizes neither.
We are humble enough to stoop to help a child yet haughty enough to look the other way when the same child makes us feel uncomfortable.
We are the liberal who cries "Freedom of Speech" while turning our nose up when "politically incorrect" speech "offends" us.
We are the conservative who cries out for "personal responsibility"... while insisting the government protect our interests.
We are the worker who despises the boss for "robbing" us of the pay we think we should be getting... while taking home company property for personal use... and the hard workers who get the job done.
We are the middle manager who tries to convince the worker that a .25 cent an hour raise is a king's ransom, but a $10,000 increase in production is a pittance.... and the ones who relish being stuck in the middle.
We are the management who resents the workers' for robbing pens, computer paper and even computers, while looking for ways to cut the "fat" from the payroll by "downsizing"... and the ones with great pay and benefits packages (even without a union).
We are the soldier who volunteers for combat duty... and also the one who enlists for the duty with little to no chance of being deployed.
We are the two war veterans of the same battle who have lost contact... meeting again on the opposite sides of the protest march... re-establishing the old frienship and agreeing to meet afterwards... we are also those who never meet again.
We are the "family values" nation who watched the sons and daughters head out to the next frontier, sometimes never to be heard from again.
We are the Believer who defies the law by posting emblems of our spiritual standards where they "don't belong"... and the non believer who pushed for the ban in the first place.
We are the nation that cares nothing about the color of a person's skin... but celebrates "the first" breakthrough in a race's social progress.
We are the nation where Jesse Jackson can get rich from racism, Michael Moore can sit in a place of political honor after doing what would have gotten him executed in many other countries and where Cindy Sheehan can demand respect for her loss, while insulting other mothers for theirs.
We are the war bride who loves her husband beyond words, but stands with a poster in her hand.
We are the people who respects education... and also the graduate a who can't read.
We are they who loves winners, until they succeed... then we are rooting for whoever stands to tear them down.
We are the ones who are nodding in agreement with my post... and the ones I've utterly offended to their last Red, White and Blue blood cell.

That is America and what makes Americans great. We have the ability to stand up and embrace the contradiction, because that contradiction is the result of knowing we are a free nation. If we are finally defeated, it will not be by rifles, cannons, missiles, RPGs or IEDs; it will be by an enemy who chooses to use our Freedom, Bravery, Tolerance, Peace, Self Reliance, Work Ethic, Integrity, Family Ties, Education, Motivation, and Patriotism as a weapon against us....

So, does that answer your question? (At least from me?)
Reply #3 Top
I'll start, with my country. To me, Canada stands for tolerance, peace, living together, and looking out for the little guy (and the McKenzie brothers) . We believe in multiculturalism and tolerance, we believe in letting you be, but when you are down, gicing you a helping hand. Canada is not a flag or a chunk of land to me, it is an ideal of tolerance.


Multiculturalism and tolerance are mutually exclusive as the world exists today. The only culture which values tolerance is western culture. Intolerant cultures, as found in virtually everywhere else on the planet, can only coexist with the tolerant so long as they remain a miniscule portion of the population. And even then there is a danger. Witness the Netherlands last year with Theo Van Gogh and Britain with July 7th.

Canada can only go on embracing multiculturalism so long. Eventually tolerating the intolerant will bring intolerance, and it won't be people of your mindset running the show anymore. Will you still consider Canada under, let's say, a crescent and "áÇ Åáå ÅáÇ Çááå æãÍãÏ ÑÓæá Çááå" to be your country still?
Reply #4 Top
Good question latour. The problem with Americans is they think that if you criticise them it means you hate them. I have many criticisms of my country, but I am fiercely patriotic and always have been.

GP, I was about to write a response, but then I thought better of wasting my time on such an inane comment.

ParaTed, you're a legend!
Reply #5 Top
Champas Socialist, tolerance is fine if it's mutual. Islamic Civilization is not tolerant of Western Civilization, not tolerant of dissent, not tolerant of liberty, and generally not tolerant of a lot of things that we value in the West. In many circumstance, it is downright hostile. There's an inherent danger in being tolerant of the intolerant. I think America's Wilsonian campaign in Iraq is also foolish in the manner that it is imposing an alien concept on people who are not prepared for, nor wanting of, it. A Western-style republic is just not going to take there. Islam and Arab backwardness will see to that. Even more unsettling is that as backwards as Islam is, the Salafis and Wahhabis feel it still isn't primitive enough. And these are the forces that control Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

And you don't find it shallow the idea that a particular nation almost wholly defined by multiculturalism? It's spiritually empty and so superficial. Is that your definition of 'family' also?
Reply #6 Top

Succintly, America is the first, and greatest Experiement that Man has ever tried at self governance.  In that it is an ideal that is not perfect and can be improved upon, but no one has tried or come close to yet.  All other nations, with few exceptions, are merely ethnic conclaves.  The few exceptions are merely extensions of ethnic conclaves.

America is the best friend you could ever want to have, or the worst enemy you will ever incur.  But the choice is always yours.

Reply #7 Top
So, does that answer your question? (At least from me?)


Sure. The main reason I asked was because I am often accused of anti-Americanism, so I wanted to know what it is I am supposed to be hating, and basically what people are saying when they call me anti-American, so I can tell whether it is true or not.
Reply #8 Top
America is the place where you can have a McDonalds, a strip club, and a church, all on the same city block. Hehe.

(It's true! I know a block like that!)
Reply #9 Top
Fair enough Latour.

To me, the only truly "anti American" are those whose purposes are to see the enemies of America triumph over us.

I'll let you decide which you are from there.
Reply #10 Top
ParaTed, you're a legend!


Wow, never been called a "legend" before! Thanks Champas... I'm humbled.
Reply #11 Top
I didn't intend this to be a discussion on multiculturalism, but here goes...

Multiculturalism and tolerance are mutually exclusive as the world exists today. The only culture which values tolerance is western culture. Intolerant cultures, as found in virtually everywhere else on the planet, can only coexist with the tolerant so long as they remain a miniscule portion of the population. And even then there is a danger. Witness the Netherlands last year with Theo Van Gogh and Britain with July 7th.Canada can only go on embracing multiculturalism so long. Eventually tolerating the intolerant will bring intolerance, and it won't be people of your mindset running the show anymore. Will you still consider Canada under, let's say, a crescent and "áÇ Åáå ÅáÇ Çááå æãÍãÏ ÑÓæá Çááå" to be your country still?


I disagree with your whole premise, that only westerners are tolerant. I know people from other countries, and they seem to be pretty much equally tolerant. Even in Toronto, where the non-white population will soon be more than 50%, there isn't much ethnically motivated crime (they have their problems like any large city, but most of those have nothing to do with intolerant minorities trying to kill whitey and take over Canada). Same goes for Vancouver, where the Asian population is through the roof. Most of the intolerance I have read about or seen in Canada are the (presumably white) assholes that were pissed that the new Governor General is black ("why is it that only minorities get the job of GG (when in fact only the last two have been non-white)?", or the (pretty much all white) morons complaining about native population. However, most of us tend to be tolerant of other peoples cultures, and enjoy festivals like Folklorama, where we get to sample other peoples cultures (and some good food).

And then you try to inspire fear by basically threatening that if we continue to be tolerant of other peoples cultures and allow them in, Canada will be overthrown by a Muslim force who will turn is into Saudi Arabia...rrrrrrrriiiighhhtttttttttttt

And you don't find it shallow the idea that a particular nation almost wholly defined by multiculturalism? It's spiritually empty and so superficial. Is that your definition of 'family' also?


I never said wholly defined, I meant that was the biggest part of Canadian identity there is. We are tolerant, multicultural, peaceful, and try to give a helping hand to our brothers around the world (despite Paul Martin not living up to his promises to anyone).

And by spiritually empty are you referring to religion, because Canada is relatively secular, and I myself am an atheist, so I'm not quite sure what you want me to say.
Reply #12 Top
Fair enough Latour. To me, the only truly "anti American" are those whose purposes are to see the enemies of America triumph over us.I'll let you decide which you are from there.


crap, now I need to define "enemies of America," "triumph" and "us"...I'll sleep on it.

Succintly, America is the first, and greatest Experiement that Man has ever tried at self governance. In that it is an ideal that is not perfect and can be improved upon, but no one has tried or come close to yet. All other nations, with few exceptions, are merely ethnic conclaves. The few exceptions are merely extensions of ethnic conclaves.America is the best friend you could ever want to have, or the worst enemy you will ever incur. But the choice is always yours.


I understand that Europe is made up mostly of ethnic conclaves (and a good chunk of the rest of the world is divided up by the Europeans with no regard to ethnic groups, or the indiginous population was wiped out), however sometimes I don't see how America differs that much from these European countries.
Reply #13 Top
crap, now I need to define "enemies of America," "triumph" and "us"...I'll sleep on it.


That's why I said I'll let you decide from there. ;~D
Reply #14 Top
I can't find the right definition for it, so I will just say this:
I love America, defects and all. I feel blessed to live here.

And as an aside, I wish we weren't the only ones who used the term "American"; afterall, Canada, Central, and all of South America are technically "Americans", too. Gosh, can't we all just get along...
Reply #15 Top
And as an aside, I wish we weren't the only ones who used the term "American"; afterall, Canada, Central, and all of South America are technically "Americans", too. Gosh, can't we all just get along...


Because "United Statesians" sounds silly, and no one else seems to want to use the name, so why not?.. ;~D
Reply #16 Top

I understand that Europe is made up mostly of ethnic conclaves (and a good chunk of the rest of the world is divided up by the Europeans with no regard to ethnic groups, or the indiginous population was wiped out), however sometimes I don't see how America differs that much from these European countries.

Only Europe?  What about Asia?  When you come right down to it, the only artificial divisions are in Africa, and yes, that was by the Europeans.  However, you see how well they blend. (i.e. almost not at all).

America has only one thing in common with europe.  A common world Vision.  But as been demonstrated recently, they share very little else, and the Europeans hate America for not being European.  America is a blend of Europe, Asia, Africa, and Native American. 

Reply #17 Top

And as an aside, I wish we weren't the only ones who used the term "American"; afterall, Canada, Central, and all of South America are technically "Americans", too. Gosh, can't we all just get along...

Technically true.  I also wonder how we kind of absconded with the term American.  I guess because we are technically the United States of America, and so instead of saying United States of Americans, we shortened it.

Reply #18 Top
disagree with your whole premise, that only westerners are tolerant. I know people from other countries, and they seem to be pretty much equally tolerant. Even in Toronto, where the non-white population will soon be more than 50%, there isn't much ethnically motivated crime (they have their problems like any large city, but most of those have nothing to do with intolerant minorities trying to kill whitey and take over Canada). Same goes for Vancouver, where the Asian population is through the roof.


Intolerance is not the same thing as inter-ethnic violence. You need not be violent to be intolerant. Perhaps you should base your opinions on more than just stories of violent crime in Toronto or Vancouver. Perhaps you should live in a Muslim section of Amsterdam or The Hague for a few years. Or a Turkish neighborhood in Berlin. Or cross between East and West Beirut. Or spend some time in Prizren, Kosovo. Or Harare, Zimbabwe (Salisbury, Rhodesia as it used to be called) If you can base your opinions on the people you met, why can't everyone else? Or are testimonials from people only worthwhile when they portray non-western or non-white people in a good light?

Most of the intolerance I have read about or seen in Canada are the (presumably white) assholes that were pissed that the new Governor General is black ("why is it that only minorities get the job of GG (when in fact only the last two have been non-white)?", or the (pretty much all white) morons complaining about native population. However, most of us tend to be tolerant of other peoples cultures, and enjoy festivals like Folklorama, where we get to sample other peoples cultures (and some good food).[\quote]

I suspect your media in Canada is as biased when it comes to ethnic and racial issues as it is in the United States, perhaps even more. They feel they have to shield the people from news about bad things that minorities do lest the whites suddenly rise up one day and slaughter anyone who doesn't look or think as they do.

And then you try to inspire fear by basically threatening that if we continue to be tolerant of other peoples cultures and allow them in, Canada will be overthrown by a Muslim force who will turn is into Saudi Arabia...rrrrrrrriiiighhhtttttttttttt


I've see the situation that arises when a country that prides itself on multiculturalism finally gets a rude awakening from an intolerant segment of the population. It may not be Saudi Arabia (yet). More like Lebanon. Canadian society doesn't need to be overthrown. Demographic change is the new tool of conquest. Immigrate and outbreed your opponents and in a few generations you can assert your political clout more effectively.

Former Singaporean Prime Minister Lee Kwan Yew had this to say about democracy and multiculturalism in his country in an interview with Der Spiegel magazine (August 8, 2005):

SPIEGEL: During your career, you have kept your distance from Western style democracy. Are you still convinced that an authoritarian system is the future for Asia?

Mr. Lee: Why should I be against democracy? The British came here, never gave me democracy, except when they were about to leave. But I cannot run my system based on their rules. I have to amend it to fit my people's position. In multiracial societies, you don't vote in accordance with your economic interests and social interests, you vote in accordance with race and religion. Supposing I'd run their system here, Malays would vote for Muslims, Indians would vote for Indians, Chinese would vote for Chinese. I would have a constant clash in my Parliament which cannot be resolved because the Chinese majority would always overrule them. So I found a formula that changes that...

SPIEGEL: ... and that turned Singapore de facto into a one party state. Critics say that Singapore resembles a Lee Family Enterprise. Your son is the Prime Minister, your daughter-in-law heads the powerful Development Agency...

Mr. Lee: ... and my other son is CEO of Singapore Telecoms, my daughter is head of the National Institute for Neurology. This is a very small community of 4 million people. We run a meritocracy. If the Lee Family set an example of nepotism, that system would collapse. If I were not the prime minister, my son could have become Prime Minister several years earlier. It is against my interest to allow any family member who's incompetent to hold an important job because that would be a disaster for Singapore and my legacy. That cannot be allowed.

The interview was conducted by editors Hans Hoyng and Andreas Lorenz.

Translated from the German by Christoper Sultan
Reply #19 Top
Intolerance is not the same thing as inter-ethnic violence. You need not be violent to be intolerant. Perhaps you should base your opinions on more than just stories of violent crime in Toronto or Vancouver. Perhaps you should live in a Muslim section of Amsterdam or The Hague for a few years. Or a Turkish neighborhood in Berlin. Or cross between East and West Beirut. Or spend some time in Prizren, Kosovo. Or Harare, Zimbabwe (Salisbury, Rhodesia as it used to be called) If you can base your opinions on the people you met, why can't everyone else? Or are testimonials from people only worthwhile when they portray non-western or non-white people in a good light?


I base my opinions of Canada on what is going on in Canada, not Amsterdam or Kosovo or Zimbabwe.
Reply #20 Top

I base my opinions of Canada on what is going on in Canada, not Amsterdam or Kosovo or Zimbabwe.

Those who live in glass houses..........

Reply #21 Top
Those who live in glass houses..........


uh, can you explain what you mean by that?