Metaverse Scoring Audit

from Stardock Forums

As some people may have noticed, Stardock conducted a Metaverse scoring audit. The intention is to try to ensure the general integrity of the Metaverse. 

According to the Metaverse auditors, there were a number of top ranked players who had figured out a way to submit multiple entries for what was essentially the same game. We don't know precisely how they did this (hex editor, decompiler, etc.) but the only things that would appear different in the game were the gameID and sometimes the first researched tech.  Otherwise, it was still the same map, the same enemies, the same everything.

As a result, some people were able to quickly rise to the top of the Metaverse by submitting dozens of 60,000 (max score) games per week.  I have instructed our moderators to find anyone who has done this sort of thing in any significant way and zero out all of their games. Most of the top players were looked at closely.

Some players who have high scores have them because they took advatnage of a legitimate (though in hindsight bad idea on our part) feature of enabling people to resubmit games they played and replace existing scores with them.  So some players who had built, over time, many good games could resubmit as they figured out how to win.  We consider these games to be legitimate and won't be penalizing them (though in any GalCiv 2 this will be changed so that once a game's submitted to the metaverse, it's saved forever).

We also reserve the right to remove scores based on "Cheesing".  However, we have not done so thus far and before we would (if we ever do) we would first post explicitly the tactic being used that is considered off limits before acting. So any sort of cheese tactic wouldn't be arbitrarily chosen and would have to be publicly defensible on the forum (i.e. we would have to make a compelling case as to whether a given tactic was cheese).

If someone feels they were unfairly harmed, they can contact pford@stardock.com who is in charge of the moderators on the Metaverse. No games were deleted, they were simply hidden and taken out of the counting.  But beware, don't waste our time with false claims of innocence. Looking at the scores at the top that remain there, I can assure you that the games were looked at thoroughly at at considerable expense (in engineering hours) on our part.

We consider the integrity of the Metaverse to be somewhat important as it has to be fair to the entire community. Not just to the dozen or so people who are focused on having very high rankings. It's not fair to the people who play the game fairly and submit their scores to be zapped into obscurity simply because a handful of people have found some exploit or cheat or whatever you want to call it to push up ridiculously high scores.


[Message Edited]
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Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Thanks for taking the time to do this and thanks to Pat and the team for commiting their precious time for our benefit.
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top

Brad, sorry to keep asking questions ;)

If the user was to constantly use the same user created map for AP, would this flag their game if they researched the tech tree the same each game, or would the rest of the games random meetings, etc be enough to keep them from being inspected. Only ask as i know a few gamers who research the tech tree the same every game.

Thanks

Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
User created maps would still not have identical values. There are always fluctuations from game to game.
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
User created maps would still not have identical values. There are always fluctuations from game to game
End of quote


This implies to me that a vaule is created for each map, based on some algorithm of planet location. Also, it implies to me that there is some slight random position of star systems at the start of a game that might not take place if a map is utilized multiple time after the start had taken place.

Is this what you mean by value of a map and that values are not the same even if the map starts out the same?
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
There are always fluctuations from game to game
End of quote


The two biggest ones I can think of is the location of initial minors and the various anomalies since they are randomly placed
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
It's more than that. Every game, even if you play the same way on the exact same map, isn't going to end with all the races in the same positions, same stats, same fleets, same planets, same populations. There are MANY things that can vary widely on different play-throughs of the exact same map... any number of these could be tracked to identify a cloned game.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
Thanks for keeping putting the work into the metaverse.

Much appreciated.

Paul.

~SDC~
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree... I hate cheats ... but I must say that I am suprised that its taken so long for them to start cheating like this and that there were only 2 of them.

Very Dissapointing as they'd built up such respect here in the Galciv Community.. It makes one wonder just who that can trust

Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree... I hate cheats
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Me too, too bad that we may never know the truth in this matter. Renegade says he did cheat. Loth says he played every game. I have not seen proof on either side.
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
renegade, from what i've read, said he used a political party mod to his advantage that was never flagged on submission. He denies hacking the code to submit the same game multiple times. more 'cheese' than 'cheat'?

:notsure:
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
I don't believe that Stardock are that stupid to delete scores unless they are posative .. it wouldn't be in their best interest.. and don't forget that when you submit a score. that it doesn't just submit he score.. but also other data which they can check and compair.. and it is extreamly unlikely that playing any 2 games from 2178 to 2190+ that everything except for the checksome and game ID would be the same..
In my mind I too thought it would be easy to cheat.. by simply adjusting those 2 values.. but as stated in the registration screen for the metaverse that they can and will check out suspicous scores.. They have no one to blame but themselves

I sympothise with the Galactic Guardians as their player was cheating..

Once again thanks goes out to Stardock for all their ongoing support and dilligence in maintaining the great Game system
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
Once again thanks goes out to Stardock for all their ongoing support and dilligence in maintaining the great Game system
End of quote


I agree, too bad they don't back up their actions with facts that can be evaluated. What we have is one person's word against another. Somehow that leaves me with less enthusiasm for either side in this controversy. Both sides should disclose in detail what they have done and how "cheating" was determined. Remember, once before, apparently, a person was accused of cheating by Stardock and they where shown to be incorrect in their assertions.
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
Well.. Stardock did state the reasons.. If they had have given us a hex dump of the data transmitted then others could be tempted to follow and try it out for themselves.. and for those that don't understand the raw data would only get confused by it..

When Companies catch hackers they don't tell their members how the hacker got in..

same principal here...

the prevous assertioon as has once again poped up was due to anomilous scores being repetadly posted.. not just once or twice.. even after Stardock explained to the user what was happening and stardock asking the user change their mod/party settings and after being told by stardock that if they continue to post without modifying that the scores would remain anomolous.. and that person got upset when stardock stopped deleting the anomolous scores.. I know this as I too (only on 2 occasions in the past 12 months) have experimented with .party and mod files and had them produce anomolous scores.. which Stardock has corrected for me.. but I didn't keep playing with the same properties as those games..

Common sence should pervail.. as you said (if its true) one of them have admitted to cheating.. .. I'm not saying that all their games were cheated games..

I honestly don't know.. but it makes sence to me.. as I've always found Stardock staff to be very helpfull,patient and profecional .. Why would Stardock do anything to put our backs up.. they wouldn't as it would wreck their business.. I dare say that if they cheated or not then it would be between them and stardock to sort out.. but ultimatly this is a stardock server and service and what they say goes..

Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree, too bad they don't back up their actions with facts that can be evaluated. What we have is one person's word against another. Somehow that leaves me with less enthusiasm for either side in this controversy. Both sides should disclose in detail what they have done and how "cheating" was determined. Remember, once before, apparently, a person was accused of cheating by Stardock and they where shown to be incorrect in their assertions.
End of quote


That indeed is true, but it was months ago. Two players tech trees looked haywire. They were getting techs without having the prereq's. However, a cursory glance at my tech trees (I knew my order and what I had and how I got it) revealed that the Data on Stardock's end was not showing techs traded for at the time. The two in question traded for techs with the ai heavily. And that was also much more preliminary and Stardock resolved it before they got kicked. That also shows that Brad is willing to listen to reason in the matter and usually doesn't just fly off at the handle.

If either of the two accused in this case have their games saved, I'd think it very easy for them to prove their innocence. Note that I'm not saying their failure to do so is proof of their guilt.
Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top
If they had have given us a hex dump of the data transmitted then others could be tempted to follow and try it out for themselves
End of quote


This is BS. I am sorry, but if Stardock can say they can detect cheaters, then telling people how they do it doesn't give people the information necessary to cheat. I did not ask for a hex or binary dump. I merely said that they can say something like the following: "Stardock has determined that cheating took place in the following area and/or ways:" and then explain how cheating was the only way that that could happen. Stardock has not done that. The only thing they have said (see an extract of Stardock comments in Senate Halls that removes all the extraneous comments, such as this one) is that every thing was the same and that they somehow changed the game ID. We do not know what data is submitted with a game. Why is this such a secret? Is there less being submitted than Stardock would like us to believe? Are they really just trying to scare people who might cheat that they will easily be detected? I don't know. What I do know is what I have said: We have one person's word against another. I would like to see the supporting arguments on both sides.
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
I merely said that they can say something like the following: "Stardock has determined that cheating took place in the following area and/or ways:" and then explain how cheating was the only way that that could happen. Stardock has not done that.
End of quote


Stardock has said that the only way this could happen was someone changed the game ID from previously submitted games and resubmitted them. They also stated that everything was the same except for the Game ID and sometimes the very first Tech researched. How much clearer do you want it?

We have one person's word against another.
End of quote


We have Stardock's word and I believe them they do not need to submit any proof. There are people such as Naqmir, Technician among others still submitting many games each day. These people have not been removed because they are not cheating.

Weyrleader, I think that at this point the only thing that to satisfy you would be a detailed data dump which would require an explanation from Stardock as to what the data was and how it pertained to cheating. I am wondering why this audit has you so bent?


[Message Edited]
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
They also stated that everything was the same
End of quote

I guess that is the point which annoys Weyrleader: what is exactly submitted, to see if there is some logical problem.

Example: if only the researched techs are submitted, you could conclude that some cheating is involved since you will be able to research techs that need some you haven't researched but obtain through trade. But the submitted data won't show you the trade.

Another example: if the date of finding the tech isn't submitted, you could think that the research for two games are identical since you haven't the time axis but only the list of researched techs.

I don't pretend to know what is submitted. I just wanted to show why Weyrleader has his point of view.
Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top
Since there has been so much published for MASO strategies, specially the research and build orders I would think that there are lots of people out there that never vary the research/build order. Most of the MASO players stick to and replay the same strategy to get the alliance win.

The important thing is none of the other top game posters got flagged for cheating. These peoples games would be following a formula that most likely rarely if ever varies.

I do understand Weyrleader's opinion, and I would agree that it would be nice to know exactly what information is sent for each game submitted but I also feel that it is not necessary to prove that they were cheating.
Reply #24 from Stardock Forums Top
How much clearer do you want it?
End of quote


Yes, and both Renegade and Loth said they played every game. Their work aginst Stardock. Not proof of anything.
Reply #25 from Stardock Forums Top
These people have not been removed because they are not cheating.
End of quote


True, they have not been removed. Nor have I or you. But we have been examined because we were submitting more than one game a day. Does this imply that they thought we might be cheating?