Please stop the MASO wins.

I still have yet to win my first maso. But from what I have read, two simple things would make it not so "simple". Agreed the 1 IP is cheezy, but so is (imo) being able to "keep them fighting each other". if you bribe an AI to go to war with the another AI, you should also have to be at, or go to, war with them.

Aloha...it seems to me from all the threads i've read,that Maso is just following a program to win,
and that to me seems no fun,i'm not against it,if you want to play for score,kewl,if you just want to play,kewl,
the whole point of this is to have fun,whatever ur style,and i think GalCiv gives us all that option...IMHO

~SDC~

This is the "BIG ISSUE" that programmers for years have been trying to address: "How do you make the program learn and therefore make their responses or plans be less by "design" and more unpredictable.

When we play a game, there are "rules" that we play by, there are situations that dictate a particular response, but in no way are we bound to them. We can say, "In this situation I should do this, but what if I do something really wild?" The computer is bound by its programming or rules. It is very difficult to program "situational" thinking in a program - on a budget.

For how many years has IBM tried to make a computer beat the "best" chess players in the world? For at least 30. Only recently have they come close to succeeding. The hardware and software investment in that problem alone has been immense.

Am I saying that it is impossible, for Stardock to make the game harder to win? No, not at all, but they will fix glaring issues that we, the game players, have pointed out. Then, someone will figure out what new rules have been added and how to "play" against them. We will be back where we are at again.

The difference to me is that we are dealing with a company that is listening closely to what their customers are saying and trying to make the playing experience better, not perfect.

My $.02

kasualkid

~SDC~

No! What you see is suggestions for people who are trying to move up to maso. Winning at maso doesn't require you to follow any sort of program, or use any cheese. However, there is definitely an "easiest path to a maso win" program which is well-known, and which is posted for the benefit of those who are trying to move up. Once you get good enough you can drop the cheese and still win regularly.

This is true. If the only way to win was via military conquest and you had to fight toe to toe with the AI, it would be tougher to enjoy the game and easier for the designers to make it harder. The fact that you have to take into account culture, economy, research to go along with military makes this a very versatile game. Which makes it increasingly difficult to make it harder to win once the rules are known.

~SDC~

I agree with vinicible. There are many different ways to win (or lose) at maso. Maso can still clobber me big time after more than a dozen wins.

And, if it was so easy to play maso then everyone would be playing maso instead of mostly the top 50 or so in the metaverse. Until that happens, I am reluctant to criticize the game structure, which Frogboy has stated is geared toward the average player and not the top few percent. Instead I am thankful for the help I received from the wonderful folks on the forum so I could improve my game from beginner to maso because it made it more fun for me.

I also agree the metaverse is not a measure of the "best" players (except Cotal, Ray, and Jaws are right up there). The metaverse reflects dedication or obsession and has a lot to do with how much time you have to play. Some persons make it a point to be in the top 25 or 50 without playing maso at all.

Currently, for me, maso is a lot more fun than sub-maso levels. It is very challenging and I haven't gotten any anomalous scores on maso because I can't bankrupt the AI with tech for cash deals. Sub-maso on 1.11 is just way too easy for some of us who have played dozens of games. We will see about 1.12.

Players should play what level they enjoy from the easiest to the hardest. That's why multiple difficulty levels exist for most good games. Players should also use the cheese they want from control-N to control-U to reloads. Players might be naturally gifted or they might choose to put in the many, many hours it took (for an average gamer like me) to learn maso. Any of the above is fine. Just have fun playing your own style game of Gal Civ and appreciate what a cool game it is.

[Message Edited]

It's been said that the Metaverse has become the Masoverse.

I'll report...

http://idle.thehueys.com/midwest/masotrends.html

You decide!

idle

~SDC~

Good stuff, idle.

Can you do the total score of all maso games versus all non-maso games?

idle, as a member of the GalCiv community, love those graph you churn out. The number of total games played has remained fairly constant over the August-October time frame with the quantity of maso games increasing significantly each month.

idle, as a member of the MWC, can't you put the graphing aside and play more games??? LOL

~SDC~

And yes, I did notice you got two maso's in this week.

~SDC~

lol

I really should!

It's on my todo list

idle

~SDC~

But is it an A, B or C priority. LOL

~SDC~

Hey! I'm still having a hard time winning on challenging!

Refresh this http://idle.thehueys.com/midwest/masotrends.html

That's a pretty telling statistic if you ask me.

idle

~SDC~

master of the obvious LOL

~SDC~

In the words of George Sanderson, from Monster's Inc.

"Keep the doors comin' Charlie, I'm on a roll today."

If you dont see 3 separate graphs on this http://idle.thehueys.com/midwest/masotrends.html then hit your refresh button

Any other stats you'd like my graph out? I think I got this php/mysql thing licked

idle

~SDC~

Thanks idle!
Maybe do the map size thing as a two pie charts, one for maso and one for non-maso. Bar graphs aren't very revealing.

I'm on it like a bonnet...

tomorrow, since I've exhausted all my 'puter time according to my lovely wife

idle

~SDC~

Glad to see your better half is in control.

Hey - it's 2003, right? I want 3D modelling of all data plus probability plots of game scoring up to 2047 (and yes, I still plan to be Top 25 then)

Seriously - is anyone in any doubt as to why this is happening? Stardock decided that maso players should be at the top of the scoring tree, so they developed an exponential scoring curve to make it so. Guess what - it worked. We've been over this before.

Much as I have some sympathy for Technician's viewpoint and would prefer a linear point scoring curve as opposed to an exponential one (as I believe it's more inclusive), this is only relevant to the VERY small number of players who are interested in Metaverse board scores and competing as individuals or in empires. Looking at the published figures (ie as least 5000 game copies sold) it becomes obvious that the vast majority of game players NEVER LOG A GAME ON THE METAVERSE.

I'm with vincible and ric - I still get whacked at maso at times, and the various guides you see are just that. I had to evolve my own style of playing and anyone who wins consistently at maso eventually has to do more than rely on cookie cutter solutions. Sure, fix obvious bugs (although I still think the 1IP bug is a matter of amount of IP involved, not the process of using IPs to influence the AIs). If you play for fun, the level doesnt matter. If you play to conquer the Metaverse, you'll virtually have to learn to play at the hardest level - and Stardock seem to think that's the way it should be, which in some respects is not an unreasonable argument.

Vincible.. if I was at work I'ld swear at you call you a manager.

Idle.
on the third chart can you do a total points comparison as well.. ta.

Go morality there as well Wouldn't mine seeing the third chart with mority..

Wild wombat asked for a week break down of games submitted along time ago . is that possible? with the maso indicated as well.



(yes i'm trying to keep him away from playing the game)

And it's possible (but getting more difficult) to be in the top 25 without a maso game at all....

(Like me!)

Alex


~SDC~

define fun
I mostly enjoy understanding the nuances of the AI and the underlying model. Funny thing, but it is the exploits tha expose the functionality IMHO. I also like to maximize the simulation, and I am from the shool old enough to have crashed all the old games by having too many ships, cities, whatever.

hats off to a team that can produce a simulation that is fun for the casual player and the fanatic like me

Stats like that really bring the point home . . .

You see these are the vulnrabilities of the so called Maso AI . . .

1. The Techs they research are very predictable. Theres a certain point when all the AIs are going after either Battleship or Disruptor technology (early in the game) in which you can probably get anywhere up to a dozen more rewarding Techs (in that they yield very economicaly/socially/influencialy powerful TGs and wonders) . . . they do this even in the absence of any conflict?

2. They let you vulture planets! This is a big one . . . they should really say 'get the hell out of my soup!' but instead they let you slide right in and claim planets they've been campaigning for with thier own blood . . .

3. They sell you techs like Life Force and Cultural Conquest for a pitence of what thier really worth . . .

4. They don't seem able to steal your techs as far as I can tell . . .

5. The 1 point cheese should lower relations 'if' you haven't picked up any substancial influence/technological bonus since your last efforts at diplomacy . . . otherwise I think its OK because its basically saying . . . "hello look! I've got a Historical Preserve care to take a look 'Buddie'" which is what the shift in relations is actualy trying to emulate . . . in other words it should work both ways.

6. They don't ally each early enough imho (mind you thats a really subjective opinion)

7. Another big one (although I'm not 100 percent sure about this) is that they don't seem to disband enough ships and useless Starbases . . .

8. They are clueless about all aspects of Terror Stars . . . and cultural Palaces.

9. They (the AI Majors) attack other AIs at your request for a single tech in some cases even if they are thier primary sorce of income.

10. They are unable to threaten to break an Alliance when for many reasons they should (eg 'heya whats theat Cultural Palace or Terror Star doing on my front porch . . . get it the hell out of here!, or better still "I think you should reconsider attacking 'so and so' because we have an alliance and I'm not keen on getting pumbled by them etc etc )

This game is great, don't get me wrong but these seem to be all fixable . . . Simply raising the bonuses they get to make it tougher isn't a very welcome solution, it just makes the game even more suceptible to cheese. The bonuses Maso AIs get at the moment are pretty abnormal . . . anyhow that's all I thinkz about it . . . I'm very much looking foward to 1.12 Brad seems confident. and I think at least some of these issues might be adresses.

Please no obscenities.

About following a program to win at maso: Following a program is a strategy, so you'd better follow some kind of program to win at any level in this game. There are several programs that can be followed, different strategies, and you may hop from one to another one, though it becomes harder at the higher difficulty levels.

About the 'getting ai's to go to war with each other' bit. I also suggested that you should be put into war if you cause one, but that would be a bit drastic as I think it is fun to cause the ai's to go to war. Something like a possibility of being discovered, based on spying by the war target civ, would be fun. Something like, two months after the war is declared by Arceans against the Torians, you would see an event like:
'Retired Arcean diplomact blames Earth for Torian war.
"Terrans have a rich history of spawning conflicts between other civs, says the diplomat who asked to remain anonymous. One of their historical figures, Machiavel, wrote a book on how to do this, and they are just abusing us. The whole war has been started by the humans, but they won't send a single ship to help. In fact, they pretend to remain friendly to both sides.'
And you should get an angry war declaration from the Torians on the following month.