One of my frustrations with GalCiv...

from Stardock Forums
This is my opinion, so some, or many may not agree.

I know I read somewhere when I began playing GalCiv back in April or whenever it was, that the designers of this game didn't like the way the computer players ganged up on the strong players for no reason other than he was the strongest. They felt that was unrealistic and that many relationships that were forged to that point are thrown out the window and that it's very frustrating.

I completely agree with their comments on that. I just found it odd, that they did the exact same thing on the opposite end of the spectrum. If you're weak in GalCiv all the other civilizations declare war on you. It doesn't matter that you may have good relationships with them, it doesn't matter that you may never have even seen them, are nowhere near them, and your planets are useless to them, they still declare war on you. It just doesn't make sense!

I understand if you have a neighbor who is looking for planets to grow, and you're sitting next to him without a military, he may declare war on you because you're an easy target. However I often play in very big maps, and I can't explain how frustrating it is to have someone declare war on my, who is on the other side of a gigantic galaxy and we've had no relationship, or a single trade ship going back and forth.

I find this aspect very frustrating about GalCiv and in fact it may be the single reason why I stop playing. I like to grow my infrastructure before my military. I am really nice to all the other civs, trading with them, exchanging techs, but inevitably, at some point someone demands my homeworld or we're at war.

I know the solution to the problem is to build a stronger military, but this situation is just as unrealistic as the original one the designers of GalCiv were trying to avoid. Look at our world. How many times have friendly weak countries been attacked because they are weak? Heck, you can use our country as an example. Canada is friendly, but very weak. Let's face it, for a country our size, our military could not defend it for a day, especially if attacked on more than 1 front. Does that mean every country with a more powerful military is demanding tribute? Heck no. The world probably gets more from trading with us, than they would from trying to inhabit this icy homeworld (just propogating the myth so they don't come beat us up). :-)

I know this is "supposed" to be simulated by setting up lots of trade routes, but it's not sufficient to stop people who have no reason to attack you from declaring wars.

I for one, find this aspect of GalCiv is one of it's most annoying points. Maybe that's because I seem to be one of te few players who enjoys playing the diplomatic game intead of the war game. As a war game I find GalCiv is only mediocre, as an overall space conquest game it is superb. Forcing me to play it as a war game takes away from it's own strengths, in my opinion of course.
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Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
You can always use the 'gift them 1 influence point every few turns' trick to keep them off your back. The only thing is that you have to *really* pay attention to the relations screen. If it gets to hostile, you know you're in trouble. I usually also always get trade routes to the ones who hate me the most ASAP. That will improve relations quite a bit. Plus, the alignments really do make a difference. When I play my evil games, all the good races hate me no matter what I do. I don't notice it quite as much the other way around, but it's something to keep in mind.

Though every once in a while they seem to just declare war on me on a whim for no apparent reason whatsoever. (have had several cases where we had warm relations and many trade routes and they just declared war on me). Ah well, what can you do in that case?
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree to an extent, they do beat up on the little players a lot.

However when I play I like to try and be a good leader (as in having a halo, wings and a harp, good) this almost automaticly brings the Torians on my side followed closely by the Altarians...
Though this can vary, as can the Yor who usually come to my aid as they are cornered by the rest.
The Arceans are warlike and will as often fight me as fight along side me. Plus I usually recieve ships from someone. Drengins... never trust a Drengin unless you have a thousand captial ships surrounding his homeworld and a phasor pointed directly at his head.

So by my style of play there is a political war going on as well, so if I'm declared war on I fight knowing within a dozen turns aid is coming. Not so unrealistic to me... but at the same time I see what you mean.

"edit : dang spelling errors"
~SDC~
[Message Edited]
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Canada is friendly, but very weak. Let's face it, for a country our size, our military could not defend it for a day, especially if attacked on more than 1 front. Does that mean every country with a more powerful military is demanding tribute? Heck no. The world probably gets more from trading with us, than they would from trying to inhabit this icy homeworld
End of quote


Hate to break this to you. There are two basic reasons that Canada is in no military danger.

One: It is in North America, specifically, surrounded by the United States. There is no way the United States would tolerate a hostile power invading a country as close to us strategically and economically as Canada.

Two: It is a member of the British Commonwealth, and there is no way the United Kingdom would tolerate a hostile power invading a country as prominent in their Commonwealth as Canada.

So basically, because it has powerful friends, Canada is in no danger. Applying this to GalCiv, the AI should recognize if you have an alliance with a powerful neighbor and take that into account before attacking you.
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
KEmperor,

That covers Canada fairly well from a realpolitik point of view, but doesn't do anything to explain the Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, Belgium, Portugal, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Kenya, Malawi, Yemen, Laos...

In general,

Being the object of extortion for the evil races makes sense, but when their demands are tantamount to war ("I know you humans are -500BC in debt, but we must ask that you provide us with 947BC and a planet or two immediately."), why not just declare war? That is, if the only thing you've got to offer a superior power is liebensraum, they aren't going to let you buy peace in your time, they're going to invade. Having the good guys make the same demands is just plain dopey, er, I mean poorly thought out. What "good" moral system allows you to exclude the weak from consideration? This sort of moral waffling runs through most of the colonization events, as well, but that's another (dead) thread.

As far as using trade to improve diplomatic relations, I think this fails due to the restricted trade model GalCiv uses. I wouldn't mind seeing far more trade routes bringing in less money per route. Maybe there is a reason to restrict trade from a game-design point of view, but limiting trade routes for the galaxy instead of per civilization seems stilted. As well, since trade is run in the background once a trade route is established, micro-management isn't a problem. This might also be more realistic (in a fun way, not a tragic way) in the sense that replacing trade routes that have been disrupted by war would be 2 to 10 times more costly.

End transmission of .02 cents.

~SDC~
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
KEmperor,That covers Canada fairly well from a realpolitik point of view, but doesn't do anything to explain the Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, Belgium, Portugal, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Kenya, Malawi, Yemen, Laos...
End of quote


I could go into the others too, but that would be getting way off topic.
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
Instead of looking at the situation in the world here and now consider history. The weak have always been invaded by the strong. Unless they were able to talk their way out of it. Diplomacy.

Crank up your diplomacy using picks and its much easier to keep wars from breaking out.

I also can't recall many strategy games where it was easy to build only infrastructure and NOT have the ai invade you. At least here the ai does take something into account when thinking about declaring war and doesn't usually just go jihad on your ass without even a warning like in a lot of other games.
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
just go jihad on your ass
End of quote


Try slipping some Dreadnaughts and Combat Transports into an Incredible AI's territory...I didn't get any warning until their Avatars were mincing my fleets...

LOL
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
Well also, even in the real world, weak countries often end up doing what strong countries tell them to. The "tribute" isn't as overt as it is in Galciv, but it's there. Canada is (in general!) going to support or at least not actively oppose the US on most fronts, because it absolutely must maintain good relations with the US. Same goes for much of the rest of the world.
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
Being the object of extortion for the evil races makes sense, but when their demands are tantamount to war ("I know you humans are -500BC in debt, but we must ask that you provide us with 947BC and a planet or two immediately."), why not just declare war? That is, if the only thing you've got to offer a superior power is liebensraum, they aren't going to let you buy peace in your time, they're going to invade.
End of quote


First they extort, then they invade, if Hitler and Eastern Europe are anything to go by. "Diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means"

It doesn't strike me as unrealistic that the computer should pick on the weak. After all, most countries use "defence" considerations to justify the maintenance of their Armed Forces, which is surely a de facto regognition of galciv-type tendencies in human nature. (Btw, Someone told me Japan has no Armed Forces. Is this really true? Slap in the face for my argument if it is.)

I do agree though that it's annoying when a computer player goes to war with you when it has no real chance of deriving any lasting benefit.
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
(Btw, Someone told me Japan has no Armed Forces. Is this really true? Slap in the face for my argument if it is.)
End of quote


Not totally sure didn't that have something to do with their surrender in WW2, they have a self defence force, not armed forces? I'm not sure either so I'd like to hear from someone else on this too.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
didn't that have something to do with their surrender in WW2
End of quote


Japan was totally demilitarised in 1945, and remained under US administration until 1952. Don't know what's happened since then.

I came across these lyrics to a popular Japanese song of the 1880s: "There is a Law of Nations, it is true, /but when the moment comes, remember,/the Strong eat up the Weak."

I guess that nineteenth century Japanese would have had no doubts about galciv's political model! :)
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
No! Japan spends over $40 billion on its military annually, putting it in the top few nations (second place as of a few years ago). It's constitutionally restricted from *using* it in certain ways though, and for that reason the US is obligated by treaty to come to Japan's aid if it is attacked.
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
Ah! That fits much better with my idea of how humans are. Thank you, vincible!
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
never trust a Drengin unless you have a thousand captial ships surrounding his homeworld and a phasor pointed directly at his head
End of quote


LOL
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
I do not like fighting wars,

What ever happened to many paths to a win. You
need to be a war power.

There is no good - evil and logical tech trees,

You should not be able ever to build Battleships for
example if you can not build a Battle Hammer.
There are only a few pure evil techs and what about pure
good techs .


The developers caved into the maso players,

Bribing stronger races to war each other, giving tribute of 1 influence point used to be call cheese tatics but nothing is done to stop them.
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
You do not need to be a war power. You can win completely peacefully on all difficulty levels. Check the strategy forum: there is a thread called called "Maso strategy with no military" by Jeff Desilva and one called "pacifist conquest strategies" by Matthew Downie.
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
You do not have to go to war to win the game. I rarely ever go to war, and I rarely have to use the 'cheese tactics' you mention. Sure, I bump up my diplo skills quite a bit, but it works.
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
First they extort, then they invade, if Hitler and Eastern Europe are anything to go by. "Diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means"
End of quote


That was largely my point. When the only thing his victims had left to take was land (liebensraum - living room), Hitler invaded. If I've got no money, why demand money? Just declare war and/or attack. I'm guessing your misquote was an accident. (War is the continuation of diplomacy by other means. - von Clausewitz)

OTOH, Britain and France didn't annex the Sudetenland or invade Poland (geographical difficulties aside) because they were, arguably, moral powers. You could argue that their colonial ambitions in the rest of the world were hardly moral, but in GalCiv the minor civs are supposed to be the exploitable native populations.

Players should feel threatened and be threatened by potentially hostile, non-allied military powers. I'd just like to see a little more logical consistency to who does the threatening and when; it helps build a sense of immersion in the game.

No! Japan spends over $40 billion on its military annually, putting it in the top few nations (second place as of a few years ago). It's constitutionally restricted from *using* it in certain ways though, and for that reason the US is obligated by treaty to come to Japan's aid if it is attacked.
End of quote


Yup, Japan's huge military is a source of embarrassment to some Japanese, even if it is constitutionally bound to act only in self-defense.

You do not have to go to war to win the game. I rarely ever go to war, and I rarely have to use the 'cheese tactics' you mention. Sure, I bump up my diplo skills quite a bit, but it works.
End of quote


I guess that this is proof that every game is different. I maxed out diplomacy in a trial run of maso strategy on a crippling game. 10 turns after I met the Drengin they were selling human skin franchises to their business community. Diplomacy-schliplomacy. ;)

End transmission.

~SDC~
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
The AI does take the distance into account. I.e. it's not supposed to go after people on the other side of the galaxy unless they're a really easy target.
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
Frogboy that must be a latter change, because in some of my Gigantic map games in May, I had guys declare war on me from the other side of the universe. The guys never did make it over to attack me. So after 40 or 50 turns they ask for peace, when the declared the war in the first place and our ships never came into contact. Just seems stupid. What was the purpose of the war?
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
Oh, as I mentioned several times in my original post. This is just my opinion and I still hold it. To me it is one of the most frustrating thing in the game. I can't count how many games I had to quit early because the crazy AIs all declare war on me right at the beginning. After this happens to me 3-4 times in a row, I don't play it a 5th, I put it away and maybe I come back to it a few days later, or weeks, or months...

I just find the emphasis on military power in this game is way too strong. This game talked an awful lot about the many ways to victory, but military power, especially early in the game for some strange reason, is extremely important. You'd think people would cut you a little more slack early in the game, but it seems the opposite.

Oh, and what is it with "GOOD" races that attack you for no good reason other than your military is weak. Is that really a "good" behaviour?

Oh, I should also point out, the rate at which they attack weak players is greatly increased with the difficulty level. I wrote my original player after returning to Maso. It's just insane at that level. I'd like to play Maso. more but at that level you almost have to play the game with a strong military or they'll all attack you. So at least at that level the many paths to victory seem to be shortened.

I say this having won a Maso game with Beyond Human, so it can be done, but you still have to spend so much money on a military, it's just a little frustrating for someone who doesn't want to play GalCiv as a war game.
Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top
Paguma . . . your right! That's the striking thing that occured to me when I played GC the first few times too. WT? Why the heck are they attacking me! The AI for an agressive millitary (all be it a bit Key Stone Chopish) I guess is easier to write than any other non violent tactic. However, the computer is a huge disadvantage since it still can't really use Star Bases effectively, for example . . .

I gifted a Terror star to two advisery AIs right next to thier respective opposing planets . . . you know what they both did? Retreated the Terror Stars . . . ROFL. :notsure:
Reply #24 from Stardock Forums Top
I also dislike towards the end of a game when you are assured victory by bankrupting the ai,it will destroy everything on all its planets instead of disbanding some of its war vessels.Seems pretty stupid to destroy your economy by destroying all of its planetary improvements instead of reducing fleet size to help offset costs when there are only two or three civs left and all are allied.The ai really needs to manage its finances better at end game.
Reply #25 from Stardock Forums Top
Capt. Bizarre, I think you should know that lebensraum is the correct term. Normally this wouldn't matter that much but your term, liebensraum, literally means lovingroom, or room for love LOL .

Also, though I can't remember his name, Mao's premier did say "diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means", it cuts both ways you know.

Switzerland is embedded in the midst of the european union, thus no attack. Being a Swede I know that our defense policy throughout the war was to simply be too costly for any attacker given the alternatives, if you have to fighht nato in central europe, why fight Sweden at the same time? Besides we had a de facto alliance with the U.S.
So-called moral nations do not let morality get in their way at all times, the U.S. has been known to let imperialistic ambitions in the phillipines and on cuba in the early 1900's. The Romans motivated their conquest of anatolia (modern turkey) with the need for peace, they had treaties with half the states on the peninsula and the senate actually didn't want to go to war. There are a lot of arguments for either standpoint but I agree that a moral civilization wouldn't attack a neutral civ that they don't percieve as threatening, in that case the U.S. would invade Sweden simply because they can!