Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2394

Post-Humans vs. Substrate: Units

Who are the good guys?

So we (Stardock/Oxide) have been living in the Singularity universe for a couple of years now and there are a lot of arguments over which side is better. In the original PR for the game, the “Haalee faction” (the leader of the Substrate) tried to describe the game as a battle between the noble Substrate, led by Haalee to save the galaxy from Post-Human predation. This was ultimately changed to something more neutral.

Game Mechanics

Over the coming months we hope to do a number of exclusive reveals of the different units, the game mechanics and ideological differences between the Post-Humans and The Substrate. For today, we will talk a bit about the unit differences.

Disclaimer

I’m not a marketing person. And to be honest, they don’t like it when I talk about our games sometimes because I violate one of the basic rules of marketing: Don’t mention other products. But as a fan of Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Kohan, Supreme Commander and Company of Heroes not to mention our own Sins of a Solar Empire (plus countless other games), I cannot help but to want to communicate much of this through analogies with other games I enjoy.

Post-Humans: General concepts

This particular unit is nick-named the Apollo. Post-Human units hover via channeling gravity. The Apollo is a medium sized unit (about half the size of a football field). Now, one thing you’ll notice here is that it has multiple weapon systems on it. This is one of the things that will make Ashes somewhat different from other games you may have played. Units have multiple weapons that can independently track and target.

In the case of the Apollo, it is loaded with a series of guns for taking out aircraft as well as swarms of drones. However, its weapons are not strong enough to penetrate through the armor of other units of its class.

Understanding Armor:

There is no case of a pikeman taking out a tank in Ashes. The design downside is that things are a little more complex in calculating damage. A unit has an armor class. Weapons have an armor piercing class. If it penetrates the armor then it does that weapon’s damage minus the armor. But if the armor is better than the weapon, then it does nothing.

So why did we do this? Because in a real life, all the small arms fire in the world is not going to destroy a tank. And in RTSs, there is always the temptation to just crank out endless crappy units. And in a game where your armies might involve thousands of actual independent units, the new player might think they can get far by just building swarms of cheap units.

Back to the Apollo

So the Apollo has some very nice guns for taking out drones (which have no armor but make that up in terms of numbers and a rather nasty weapons) and air units (which also have no armor but tend to have rather nasty bombs).

But the Apollo would do zero damage against an armored unit. If this concept feels familiar it should, Company of Heroes demonstrated why this is a good game mechanic.

The Substrate

Not surprising, the Substrate have a different view on things. This unit is nicknamed “Destructor”. It destroys buildings. How? In the front of it you will see what appears to be 6 small polaron beams. It focuses these beams together to create a nasty orange beam of death.

Unlike the Apollo, it isn’t totally defenseless against armored units because it has the two, independently tracking rail guns that, while short range, can hurt things that get near it.

Substrate units have shields instead of good armor which has pros and cons. On the pro side, they take no damage until you get through their shields. On the downside, even the Apollo’s weapons can do damage (albeit not a lot) to the Destructor’s shields making its relatively modest armor vulnerable. But their shields do recharge on their own (unlike Post-Human armor which has to be repaired).

Understanding shields

The Substrate chose shields because it allows them more freedom in the design of their ships. The Post-Human units are obviously distinctly different looking from the Substrate because armor limits the number of design options. On the other hand, armor has the advantage of making the unit a bit less fragile.

Trivia

The nicknames of the units are provided by the Post-Humans, even for the Substrate. Haalee does not call her units crude names like “Destructor” but her names aren’t as marketable.

Who is Haalee?

Haalee was the first sentient AI created in the early 21st century. The Substrate refers to the computing material (see more here). The Post-Humans sometimes refer to it as “Computronium”. The marketing folks would prefer a different word entirely like, Kickassium or something probably.

We’ve been playing Ashes multiplayer for about a year now and I can tell you, balance is a tricky thing, particularly when you lose a game. Winking smile We will be making it available to those who join the Founder’s group as part of the “Friends and Family” beta this Spring. Early access will probably be this Summer but we haven’t decided for certain whether we’ll be doing early access outside the Founders or not.

Any questions?

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Yarlen

Join Date 01/2005

+365

Balance is fun. My insanity with Excel proves it.

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Sounds great to me. So Terrans vs Protoss eh?

We will be making it available to those who join the Founder’s group as part of the “Friends and Family” beta this Spring. Early access will probably be this Summer but we haven’t decided for certain whether we’ll be doing early access outside the Founders or not.

So founders get in the beta in spring. (Hey spring started five days ago ) And then in summer there will be early access, but you are not certain if you do it outside the founders. If it isn't outside the founders, how is early access any different from the friends and family beta?

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Why show a concept of Apollo to showcase more turrets in a design when, as shown per the zoom screenshot, the final version actually only packs an MLRS and a single flak in the middle?

Looking at those turrets in the front of the Destructor, I guess it has a minimal range inside of which those beam guns can't converge to form a beam, right?

Quoting ColaColin,

reply 2

So Terrans vs Protoss eh?

I don't know, I'm getting pretty heavy RoS vibes from The Substrate's design. Does anyone in the office play Warmachine by chance, Frogboy?

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2394

Quoting ColaColin,

reply 2

Sounds great to me. So Terrans vs Protoss eh?

So founders get in the beta in spring. (Hey spring started five days ago

) And then in summer there will be early access, but you are not certain if you do it outside the founders. If it isn't outside the founders, how is early access any different from the friends and family beta?

I was going to make a Terrans vs. Protoss comparison. Except I hate hate HATE the Protoss. But the shield element is most definitely similar to them in that sense.

re Early Access. What I mean is Steam early access where there's thousands and and thousands of people playing. We might, at some point, decide to close the founder's program so no one new can get in.

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Ticktoc

Join Date 03/2015

+85

"Why show a concept of Apollo to showcase more turrets in a design when, as shown per the zoom screenshot, the final version actually only packs an MLRS and a single flak in the middle? "

I assume he has named one of those two units the wrong name as they are different in many ways.

He also says "The Substrate refers to the computing material" so when he says "Not surprising, the Substrate have a different view on things" above that then i think he means the post-humans. I.e. There be some mistakes here

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TheRealWarpstorm

Join Date 03/2003

+13

The Substrate is both the computing material and the name of one of the factions (Haallee's).

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I like the factions' different approach on protection (shields vs. armor). It's very important to have very different factions. Makes ballancing harder but playing more fun. The armor mechanics seem realistic and cool. Using this as a mechanic against the spamming of chep units is a good idea in my opinion.

Somewhere you were talking about map sizes. That sounds very promising, too! Huge maps are cool! It's cool though, to have some small maps for hot quickie skirmishes, too.

@ticktock: I am a little confused about the apollo pictures and concepts, too. The quotes about The Substrate don't have mistakes in them. TheRealWarpstorm explained already.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2394

I had the wrong image in the zoom in screenshot. The one in the zoom in screenshot is actually the Artemsis. I've updated the text to describe what the Artemis does. Early on, the Artemsis had a flak cannon but we decided that this made the unit too versatile and it got changed to being a long-range missile.

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Ticktoc

Join Date 03/2015

+85

I stand corrected, thank you! Unless I am missing something though, having a faction and a resource called the same name could get confusing, especially when said resource is also referred to by two names, Substrate and computronium.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 4

I was going to make a Terrans vs. Protoss comparison. Except I hate hate HATE the Protoss.

I decided on which faction I will play first the moment I realized the TvP relation. Having played practically nothing but Protoss in SC2

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I just thought about shields and sins of a solar empire mentioned in the same post. I hope you won't incorporate the shield mitigation mechanism of Sins into Ashes. I don't know if I am the only one who hated that mechanism. It took away an important aspect of battle control from me: focus firing. Of course it did not take away this aspect completely but cut it decisively. This made battles feel sour for me from some point and, in fact, made me turn my back on sins. Everything else was cool about Sins but that really took the fun away for me.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2394

We don't plan to have damage mitigation in the sense of punishing focus fire.

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That is really good to hear! Thank you for answering!

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Yarlen

Join Date 01/2005

+365

Yes, Shields are still good because they will absorb 100% of damage until depleted (unlike Armor), but there's no scaling damage mitigation like Sins had.

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What is Haalee's nickname for the "Destructor"?

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Well Frogboy, seems you are a player, and recall the great titles of the past, yet how come 2 factions, Supreme Commander FA had 4, why not provide more factions. Mechs, where are the mechs, thats a basic must have for the future. Maybe you heard of TA spring, a lonely guy made a gundam mod (2008) for it and it had flying mechas from the series, and a 9 yr old cloned his mod and added great mech vs mech aerial combat, almost similar to homeworld, fast paced, with pieces falling apart everywhere. Metal Fatigue (2000) had mech combat and had underground, ground and orbital battles, why don't implement that, Machines game (1999) allowed first person control of a unit when you needed to, and had moving black hole generators. Earth 2140 game series since 1997, you could design your units, garrison troops, etc.

So with so many things to draw upon, why Frogboy your team doesn't offer more. They need to spend a month seeing old and new mecha anime, and look beyond,

Add a dragon faction and have great mech, ships battles against them like in "Cross Ange: Tenshi to Ryuu no Rondo anime".

Add a monster faction and have great mech, ships battles against them like in "Gunparade anime".

Add Alien faction and have great mech, ships battles against them like in "Fafner in the Azure Anime", have them drop items that are researched and makes ships, mechas more powerful, but as in the anime, you can either be consumed by it or transformed by it the more you battle, and the more experience you get, a 50/50 risk factor.

The Claymore/Tokyo Ghoul anime factor, have cities in the game world, that must be evacuated before X attacks, and transform the citizens into Monsters.

A bio faction like in Ginga Kikoutai Majestic Prince Anime, they harvest DNA, so city evacuation is a must.

Add Magic as a resource for unique Mecha faction like in the anime Broken Blade.

You have some big ships, but you lack macross style SDF mega ships raining big energy shots, and droves of flying mechas spawing from it, all the while leaving a trail of burning trees "Total Annihilation had that" and permanent land damage.

System jumping, and then a sweet selection of planets like in Warhammer 40,000 dawn of war soulstorm (2008) so as not to push the envelope, or if the team can pull it off, Planetary Annihilation comes to mind.

Take a note from Dungeon keeper, the future is dark, so always start underground base building, because once discovered, its hell to pay.

There is plenty to offer, plenty done before for old systems. I'll be waiting, if a Mod community embraces it and unlocks it, I will surely get it, as I did for Sins of a solar empire, the mods truly made it shine.

Frogboy is up to you to expand the mind of the team, maybe is too late for this game, but for the next game be sure to lead in the right direction, and have Erin Jennings as eye candy smiling in the presentation video, no talk, just smiles.

Funny you guys didn't send email about this game, yet a received for servo and the other games from stardock.

Take care, be well, and cool looking mecha for ideas, to break the boxy designs,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opde6Lz6p8g. there is plenty to see and get ideas from.

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That's not a bad Idea, but i do think that Frogboy and oxide team are taking AOTS in the correct path of development and ideas, I like were its going.

Remember that the game is still in a very early stage and many things can change, and about the game, yes i do think that AOTS need more factions, I guess some kind of alien faction will be the best option to add, lets leave the mechs for the Modding community lol, hover tanks and air units looks really good right now.

I like the idea of system jumping like Warhammer, but i think Oxide may do something better or i hope that., or do something like in SC2 were you start in a small map and the map expand and expand while keeping all your bases and units when you finish a single player mission without loading so the games keeps going with the story.

So i am very positive that Oxide will add to this game or future expansions:

- More Factions
- Bigger experimental units
- Sea with naval units maybe add sea planets
- i like the Planet generator of PA so i expect some good map generator in AOTS
- and an awesome way to move war from planet to planet.... in single player or........ Wait if they have a really big map that take hours to get to the other side then it wont need to add planet wars at all, just one big map.

You watch a lot of Anime and this game is not an Anime game . Still don't forget to support the game, more people supporting it the better is going to be.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2394

Lots of good questions here.

Not sure where to start.

Re: Number of factions.

Balancing lots of factions is a serious challenge. Having lots of factions for the sake of lots of factions is not necessarily a good thing. After all, we could easily take our assets, do a minor model/texture pass and have 8 factions. But is that a good thing? Starcraft has 3 factions, all of which are dramatically different.

Since we're making a brand-new game we want to dive into what features, strategies actually matter in gameplay versus on paper. Even with only 2 factions, we plan to slowly add more units to the game.

Re future expansions

I plan to write up a document for the founders to place in there so that they get an idea of what we're up to.

Stardock's an independent developer/publisher so we are able to spend as much time on the games as we would like (there's no parent company to tell us what to do). So with Ashes, like GalCiv III, we actually have a rough layout of expansions in mind for the next 6 years post-release.

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Well ASADDF, anime is a good source of ideas, and plenty of hardware examples in action, to be implemented. So a new faction is easier to make. Of course not all will be done to this game in particular, maybe for the next 1. While the project is good, it seems the team members have not explored enough of what was done before, and can be added. Hopefully the game will be super mod friendly as TA, SCFA, Skyrim, Warhammer, SINS, Homeworld and other titles. I hope they add FLAK, and since the setup is in the future, the starting units get at least 3 weapons short range systems. And since the game premise of advance tech, I believe a proper navy may not appear, as already you have hover battleships, frigates... maybe orbital spaceships and flying megaforts. They could implement a all human, zealot class of the old ways, and never undertook expanding their consciousness beyond the confines of flesh, and those could have a proper navy.

My dear Frogboy, Starcraft is a beast of sexy stuff from the old times, that's why 3 factions is more of a Law to many old followers, and consider a Sin adding a faction to Stracraft, specially in Korea/Japan/China, there is a legion over there that even combining USA and Europe League of Legends barely make a footprint against them.

Frogboy do you love Starcraft transformer mechs, we love them, so remind the team that's a Solid way to go, and if you can pull something similar to a SDF1, or a TA krogoth, what a Win/Win.

As you said, do a minor model/texture pass and have 8 factions, now that's good, and with diverse factions comes diverse strategies, plus either you can have them all land at the same planet. After all as you expand thru the universe you might encounter different stuff, races..., SCFA did well with 4 factions, and the ones added by the modders. The beauty of your project is that you can use the same engine for space battles, even think ahead and if you can't prevail at space combat similar to homeworld, you cannot proceed to attack a planet.

An yes, I love that you plan to add more units, that's a must have, some new releases actually lack that, diversity.

By the way Frogboy, you plan on having burning trees, and permanent impact crater's.

Take care.

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Quoting FiredrakeLord,

reply 19

Don't get me wrong, I like and watch anime too, but most anime are about mechs and i am kind of tired of mechs in RTS games, going back to tanks is really nice, like you said there is so much to do in AOTS and so many things to be added that I believe that Oxide will deliver for us.

what i am understanding is that every unit in the game hover but i think Oxide is trying to tell us, that they are still tanks and they move as tanks, its a game design that's all. That's why they cannot move through mountains, rivers, lakes and sea. and that's fine with me because it will get them so much more to add in the future, and not do a stupid upgrade and make them move through everything, for me that wont be fun at all.
I love the idea of Orbital spaceships and flying megaforts. For the third faction to be the Old Humans from earth will be a great idea too. keep those awesome ideas coming.

Quoting FiredrakeLord,

reply 19

yes the game use the Nitrous Engine and it looks awesome, they had the space demo a while ago on steam called Star Swarm stress test, Its really a great Engine, i think it will be the best 4X RTS game ever if they add Space exactly like sins, just imagine AOTS and SINS together as one, and use the spaceship bombard a planet like in Dust514 from EVE online and you seeing everything, all the destruction happening in the ground and in space.

All that can be the dream RTS game that many are waiting to see.

Quoting FiredrakeLord,

reply 19

An yes, I love that you plan to add more units, that's a must have, some new releases actually lack that, diversity.

By the way Frogboy, you plan on having burning trees, and permanent impact crater's.

True adding more units is a must and about burning trees and permanent impact Crater's will be really cool for a game like AOTS were you have so many units and so much destruction going on in the map, but i think it wont happen....

A while ago Frogboy said:

Do don't plan for the mountains to be destructable (to that extents). The terrain engine is fully morphable (building things on it deforms the terrain for instance). The player will be focusing on implementing their high level strategy and taking control of key armies to execute their plan.

hope that will be changed.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2394

For Ashes, there will be factions, no more, no less. It's the Post-Humans vs. Substrate. We do plan to add a third but not until some years from now.

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Well ASADDF, tanks are great, there is a mod for SCFA that as Tanks get kills, the get experience and additional weapons, and they do hold their ground against mechs. I believe both can coexist and be nice, and that be nice, XP for units and unlocking additional PPC, MAC, Railguns, etc... I am glad you like anime, and if I am not wrong, there is a upcoming modern day tank title, but not with the numbers this game supports.

Frogboy, you have a list of weapon systems to be on the game.

Take care.

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