Basic Production

BuckGodot

Join Date 11/2009

+73

-deleted coz I misread the post -

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I don't have the entire solution, but you seem to be confused about manufacturing and production.

They are seperate and your economy slider determines what becomes of your production.

So in this instance 7.9 * 1.35 = 10.7 is correct.

I don't think pop to production is a 1 to 1 ratio, it might be something else, however

at this stage you get production * 1.25 from high morale, so your base production must be 6.32 = 4 from colony capital and 2.32 from pop or other mods?

I really would like to know the exact pop to production formula.

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peregrine23

Join Date 02/2007

+79

There are two major things confusing you here:

1) Population no longer gives you 1:1 production it has diminishing returns, and so gives you more at low pop and less at high pop.

2) You are confusing production with manufacturing at times. Production is the base number that all your other numbers modify.

So first we find your production which is (flatbonus+pop)*1+multiplier. In your case 4 for capital and +25% for approval: (4+.9)*1.25. This equals 6.125, so we see that .9 pop actually gives 2.32 production because of the curve: (7.9/1.25)-4.

Once you have your production, you multiply that by your manufacturing bonuses, in this case +20% for relic and +15% for Terran. 7.9*(1+.2+.15)=10.665 which gets rounded to 10.7.

EDIT: just to give some perspective on the pop/production curve: at 10pop it is basically 1:1, at 18 it only gives around 15 production.

EDIT: Soon after this change was announced I swear I saw the graph that showed the production curve, and I think it even had the formula, but I can't find it on the forums for the life of me. Maybe it was linked in chat during one of the streams?

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Quoting peregrine23,

reply 3

There are two major things confusing you here:

1) Population no longer gives you 1:1 production it has diminishing returns, and so gives you more at low pop and less at high pop.

2) You are confusing production with manufacturing at times. Production is the base number that all your other numbers modify.

So first we find your production which is (flatbonus+pop)*1+multiplier. In your case 4 for capital and +25% for approval: (4+.9)*1.25. This equals 6.125, so we see that .9 pop actually gives 2.32 production because of the curve: (7.9/1.25)-4.

Once you have your production, you multiply that by your manufacturing bonuses, in this case +20% for relic and +15% for Terran. 7.9*(1+.2+.15)=10.665 which gets rounded to 10.7.

About reverse determining the pop to production as 2.32 as I also did, do you have a link to a post about the pop to production formula? I would love to fit it into a spreadsheet and determine optimal population, facilities and farms.

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@peregrine23: Thanks a lot!

Somehow I missed the point about different levels of base production as a level of population. Makes it a bit difficult to reproduce numbers without knowing the formula...which I think is an important part of testing, but whatever.

So my original idea that approval bonuses apply to base production (because the tool tip says "production") is valid, while those labelled manufacturing apply after base production is determined, to wit,

Base production * fraction allocated * (1 + sum of various manufacturing bonuses expressed as fractions).

I tried to make everything work by supposing that perhaps the tool tips were mislabeled as to production/manufacturing. Naturally, that didn't work either!

And of course I got very close to the right answer for colonies whose pop is very close to 10, because the 1:1 prod:pop is very close, which confused the issue more.

To continue my next goal is to confirm the calcuation project production. But until I find the formula for the above, it's pointless.

I will post a link if searches are productive!

Thanks again.

EDIT: I wanted to provide a link that really generated most of my confusion, as it clearly stated 1 pop = 1 production. But it was early and has been changed.

https://forums.galciv3.com/452497/page/1/#3449677

Still looking for the update.

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The way the production bonuses are aplied, makes high morale and the production racial pick imba since it is applied multiplicatevly and not additive with all the rest of the resource bonuses.

Also since it's applied to all specializations, all of your planets benefit from it, in constrast to the racial bonuses to specific resources.

In my book that will always be a mandatory pick in all custom races.

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In the "GalCiv3GlobalDefs.xml" file, you can find this:

(near the top of the file)

<PopulationToProductionExponent>0.70</PopulationToProductionExponent>
<PopulationToProductionMultiplier>2.0</PopulationToProductionMultiplier>

For "PopulationToProductionMultiplier" set to "2.0":

1B Pop gives 2 to Raw Production.

Easily verifiable, (ex: start a new game and set your planet production to 100% research, you get +20 Raw Research).

The "PopulationToProductionExponent" set to "0.70" is used somewhere in a formula.

(near the end of the file)

<PlanetFullPopulation>30</PlanetFullPopulation>

This one is certainly used as a "base" population limit for the AI (without the percentage bonuses for population).

Hope this help.

(Edit: you get 20 production from the population, 8 production from the Civilization Capital, and all of this is "mixed" with the Approval Production bonuses.)

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@ Unknown_Hero Thanks for finding those entries, but I don't know how they affect anything at the moment.

In fact, if I start with Iridia and set research 100%, , I find that pop =10 (about the point that pop should equal production) and capital bonus production is 8. I also get an 11.6% boost from approval (a global multiplier) and 10% racial for "cleverness". 18 * (1 + .116 + .1) gives 21.9, which is very close to the displayed value of 22.1. The fact that 10*2 is 20, not so far off, is an accident. Races without bonuses will give very close to 20, but that is a coincidence (I think!).

It is a mystery to me at this point how these numbers are used.

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Quoting maniakos,

reply 6

The way the production bonuses are aplied, makes high morale and the production racial pick imba since it is applied multiplicatevly and not additive with all the rest of the resource bonuses.

Also since it's applied to all specializations, all of your planets benefit from it, in constrast to the racial bonuses to specific resources.

In my book that will always be a mandatory pick in all custom races.

The approval rate is a multiplicative effect applied directly to the base production. That much I have seen over and over. However, I am not so sure about the production racial pick. My calculations indicate that it is an additive bonus to other manufacturing bonuses, not a multiplicative effect, and not applied to the base pop tp get the base production.

But since I haven't yet gotten the formula for how much base production you get from a certain population (which varies with population) I can't say for sure --- could be dead wrong. It does seem like an empire wide racial pick ought to apply to the base production. But in that case I suspect it is additive with approval, but again, don't know for sure.

So far I haven't been able to find the all important base production formula so it's rather guess work.

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@ Unknown_Hero Thanks for finding those entries, but I don't know how they affect anything at the moment.

In fact, if I start with Iridia and set research 100%, , I find that pop =10 (about the point that pop should equal production) and capital bonus production is 8. I also get an 11.6% boost from approval (a global multiplier) and 10% racial for "cleverness". 18 * (1 + .116 + .1) gives 21.9, which is very close to the displayed value of 22.1. The fact that 10*2 is 20, not so far off, is an accident. Races without bonuses will give very close to 20, but that is a coincidence (I think!).

It is a mystery to me at this point how these numbers are used.

Yes, you are right, my test was too quick. My fault.

With 1B Pop it works, all of this is apparently further changed in the formula depending on the population.

Ex:

1B Pop gives 2 productions, 2B Pop gives a tad less production (2B x ?.???), etc.,
or 10B Pop gives 20 productions then it's modified in the formula,
or the first B Pop gives 2 productions, then the second B Pop gives ?.??? productions, etc.

There is a lot of possibilities. The formula can be more or less complicated.

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androshalforc

Join Date 03/2007

+62

hrmm im pretty sure i saw the formula and it was on the forums ill take a look and see if i can find it

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androshalforc

Join Date 03/2007

+62

got it

Quoting mormegil,

reply 5

As mentioned we have a curve now Population to Production calculation, it is really no longer worth putting 150b people on a world, it is not much better to put 40 or 30 and have factories, labs etc, do multipliers on them.

48 should in fact be pretty good.

The current curve is this. y=2.1*x^.75

which looks more or less like this

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ys38103dpf72lrn/Screenshot%202014-12-11%2018.01.33.png?dl=0

You can see that it would take about 130 pop to get 80 production and it get worse as you go up.

It is much better to have 50 pop with 100% multipliers from factories or what ever, giving you 100 manufacturing points.

That said, we are still balancing this, but in general beta 2 population is broken and very OP.

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@androshalforc: Thanks, I will be checking this out. Can't help myself, lol.

However, I wonder if the numbers in the global file being 2.0 and .7 mean that it has been fine tuned to 2.0^.7 --- should be easy to check.

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Yes, much simpler with the formula.

1B Pop gives 2 productions, 10B Pop gives 10 productions.

You can play with the curve here:

https://www.google.fr/webhp?hl=fr#hl=fr&q=y%3D2*x^.7

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Aha!

Many thanks!

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Quoting Bamdorf,

reply 9

Quoting maniakos,

reply 6

The way the production bonuses are aplied, makes high morale and the production racial pick imba since it is applied multiplicatevly and not additive with all the rest of the resource bonuses.

Also since it's applied to all specializations, all of your planets benefit from it, in constrast to the racial bonuses to specific resources.

In my book that will always be a mandatory pick in all custom races.

The approval rate is a multiplicative effect applied directly to the base production. That much I have seen over and over. However, I am not so sure about the production racial pick. My calculations indicate that it is an additive bonus to other manufacturing bonuses, not a multiplicative effect, and not applied to the base pop tp get the base production.

But since I haven't yet gotten the formula for how much base production you get from a certain population (which varies with population) I can't say for sure --- could be dead wrong. It does seem like an empire wide racial pick ought to apply to the base production. But in that case I suspect it is additive with approval, but again, don't know for sure.

So far I haven't been able to find the all important base production formula so it's rather guess work.

I didn't mean the productive trait that's currently in the game, but a trait that was shown? in the stream about b5 custom races that would add to base production and not manufacturing.

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OK. it looks like

raw prod = (2.1 * (raw pop)^.75 +pop capital bonus) * (1 + production bonuses) gives answers that a fairly close to the results displayed in the game for half a dozen colonies from the above mentioned saved game.

*in this case the only production bonus is from high approval. Note: bonuses labelled manufacturing are not used to calculate raw production. In each cash manufacturing and social were both set to 100%. To calculate raw manufacturing or research in other cases you need to apply the respective % from the wheel.

To wit:

raw pop prod bonus (capital) approval bonus% calc raw man displayed raw man

1.4 4 25 8.16 8.1

2.2 4 25 9.74 9.3

8.3 4 25 17.8 18.5

13.3 4 19.5 22.5 22.6

19.3 4 25 25.3 26.9

20.1 8 25 34.9 35.2

The results are fairly good. I am a little troubled that they are not spot on, but the display of the raw pop is probably rounded. Not sure that explains some of the differences, but in any event they aren't large. I used the calculator in scientific mode that microsoft windows provides, who knows if they can do an exponential calculation right! Don't know why I would like to see them come out to the last significant figure, it's the scientist in me I guess.

The take home is that higher populations do indeed provide less base production, as is generally known.

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Quoting maniakos,

reply 16

Quoting Bamdorf,

reply 9

Quoting maniakos,

reply 6

The way the production bonuses are aplied, makes high morale and the production racial pick imba since it is applied multiplicatevly and not additive with all the rest of the resource bonuses.

Also since it's applied to all specializations, all of your planets benefit from it, in constrast to the racial bonuses to specific resources.

In my book that will always be a mandatory pick in all custom races.

The approval rate is a multiplicative effect applied directly to the base production. That much I have seen over and over. However, I am not so sure about the production racial pick. My calculations indicate that it is an additive bonus to other manufacturing bonuses, not a multiplicative effect, and not applied to the base pop tp get the base production.

But since I haven't yet gotten the formula for how much base production you get from a certain population (which varies with population) I can't say for sure --- could be dead wrong. It does seem like an empire wide racial pick ought to apply to the base production. But in that case I suspect it is additive with approval, but again, don't know for sure.

So far I haven't been able to find the all important base production formula so it's rather guess work.

I didn't mean the productive trait that's currently in the game, but a trait that was shown? in the stream about b5 custom races that would add to base production and not manufacturing.

Once again I misunderstood! My apologies.

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Quoting Bamdorf,

Quoting maniakos,

Quoting Bamdorf,

Quoting maniakos,

The way the production bonuses are aplied, makes high morale and the production racial pick imba since it is applied multiplicatevly and not additive with all the rest of the resource bonuses.

Also since it's applied to all specializations, all of your planets benefit from it, in constrast to the racial bonuses to specific resources.

In my book that will always be a mandatory pick in all custom races.

The approval rate is a multiplicative effect applied directly to the base production. That much I have seen over and over. However, I am not so sure about the production racial pick. My calculations indicate that it is an additive bonus to other manufacturing bonuses, not a multiplicative effect, and not applied to the base pop tp get the base production.

But since I haven't yet gotten the formula for how much base production you get from a certain population (which varies with population) I can't say for sure --- could be dead wrong. It does seem like an empire wide racial pick ought to apply to the base production. But in that case I suspect it is additive with approval, but again, don't know for sure.

So far I haven't been able to find the all important base production formula so it's rather guess work.

I didn't mean the productive trait that's currently in the game, but a trait that was shown? in the stream about b5 custom races that would add to base production and not manufacturing.

Once again I misunderstood! My apologies.

I wasn't clear on my post, don't mind me.

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Interesting, thanks for posting!

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Basic Production

Please Explain