Help needed -- How'd AI do this?

from Elemental Forums

Started a game yesterday, 1.5 beta, my custom dead sov, 4 AI, everything insane, huge world, slow tech, no wildlands, lotsa resources/quests/etc.

Met an AI and he hit my nearest city hard and fast.  Not sure how he got 11 armies in one stack to hit me, so am posting screenshots here so those smarter than I can help me figure it out.  I'm sure it's something simple that I'm missing, so help me please  :)

Screenshot 1: just after I was declared on, and just before his army stack hits me

Note the Air Shard just inside his border, and the lack of any units except for a pioneer.

Screenshot 2: his stack of 11 armies sitting on my city, waiting for my 'OK' to ravage said city

My question is -- how did he get 11 armies to hit my city?  It's possible he had them waiting just inside the 'black' unscouted area. To test this I reloaded the game from the first screenshot position, and summoned in an undead army stack (using the spell, forget its name).

Screenshot 3: after my summoned undead army 'scouts' the enemy land a bit.  Remember that this third screenshot is taken at the same exact 'time' as the first screenshot.

We see no AI armies nearby, or roads leading to my border that an AI currently off-screen could use to reach my border in the next turn (or am I missing something?).  I also looked inside each of the 2 shown AI cities and only 1 unit in one city and 5 in the other.

By foot I think he'd need at least 3 movement to hit my city in the next turn.  If his army stack was on the Air Shard (or just south of it) then 2 movements would allow attacking my city next turn, but there's no armies nearby.  Could all 11 armies be in position just off the map, and all 11 have 3 movement (tireless march only affects 1 champion)?  That's a reach...

The only other way I can think of that his stack of armies could attack my city next turn is cloudwalk.   I checked best I could and don't see his sov or any champions in any of the 11 armies.  It's a bit hard to see in all of the armies tho so I could be missing one of course.  But again, doesn't cloudwalk only affect the army the caster is in?  Would stacking all 11 armies cause them all to cloudwalk?

This isn't a complaint/etc., just me wondering 'how did he do it?'

 

31,908 views 17 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Could you post a save, of the before picture, I have my game on perpetual cheat due to my modding habits and testing of these mods. I can look into it more.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

HERE is the dropbox save from several turns (2 I think) prior to the above screenshots.  I just replayed from this save and by just hitting 'end turn' I got the same results as describe above (a stack of 11 units hit my city on turn Summer 197 A.D.).  I did see a 'flickering' of the stack of armies on the square below the Air Shard so that seems to be on the 'route' they used.

It's possible due to the vagaries of the RNG that a replay may show different results (tho I saw the same results just now).  If so, perhaps retrying would show my above results.  At the least, this should show where the 11 attacking armies are currently and help explain how they hit me.

Thanks for the help!  :)

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I found the stack of 11 army attacking, it would take roughly 2 - 3 turns after declaring war on you before it would arrive (which is what happens with your save here) It is in sandraka

You should see it there and the distance to your city they attack. 2 turns (because of city snaking they've got on you). Good luck, you lose as far as I can tell if they decide to attack you which they do (I've got to click 4-5 end turns but it happens each time) : )

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I think that if the AI armies started just on the other side of Stoneham (or within ~3 road tiles of Stoneham), armies with 4 movement could pass through Stoneham as 1 move and take three more to hit your city (I allowed the 3 road tiles because as long as you have a fraction of a movement point you can still enter a tile, which is enough for triggering an attack).

I am a bit surprised, regardless, because at minimum this indicates either a Mancer blood enemy with an army mounted entirely on Wargs or Horses, or a non-Mancer army with an entire army mounted on horses; neither of these cases is something I can recall seeing for full armies, and certainly not for 11 armies.

Also, out of curiosity - is it a single army of 11 units, or 11 separate army stacks that hit your city? And if you play it out, do you see City Militia or anything like that in the army? Also, if you play out the battle, how much of the enemy army is mounted?

 

Edit: And Parrotmath beat me, and with a better response.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

@joeball123

Just for your curiousity, you see by the pic it is 11 stack unit and it is the 11 stack unit that I point out there that actually attacks the city. The stack is not mounted and does basically reach the city indicated in roughly 2 - 3 turns after declared war. So the AI is not "cheating" in that aspect. After the first battle you lose because it is an army of 9 units vs. the 4 militia units. Not a pretty sight.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Thank you both for the help!  :)

Addressing some questions/points:

-there are 11 AI armies in that stack attacking my city, each AI army comprised of 9 units (so 99 units total).  Looking thru all 11 armies (99 units) I saw a total of 4 'city' militia type units, 3 mounted units, 1 pioneer, and 1 scout.

What's curious to me is that my 'scouting' undead stack that I summoned inside the AI territory in screenshot 3 shows no sign of the army stack.  Assuming the stack of armies has 2 movement, and starts near enough their city Stoneham that the army stack can pass thru and exit Stoneham with 2 move remaining (because 3 or fewer movement doesn't 'count') then:

-exit Stoneham in a tile 1 west of the Air Shard (0 moves used, 2 remaining)

-enter tile on Air Shard column (1 move used, 1 move remaining)

-enter tile column 1 east of Air Shard (2 moves used, 0 remaining) and stack is next to my city but no movement left to attack that turn.

Would the army stack exit Stoneham to the Air Shard column instead?  That would allow an attack this turn.

I've lost this game, I lost the city and with no good prospects for new cities I'm toast.  Knowing what's coming (which is cheating of course) there's a chance I could do a few things to delay his approaching armies (Haunted Army spell) then Tornado the stack (or stacks as a couple of times he's split the stack into 2 stacks) then try to mop up.  I'm hoping that AI armies now reform (they didn't a few versions ago) and if so this would only delay the inevitable (and drain most of my mana).

It's heartening to see the AI this effective.  If it continues I'll have to drop down several difficulty levels, to my more usual level of (in)competance lol

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Couldn't Call of the Titans could gather all of those disparate units into one tile and put them in striking range?

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Sometimes when you see stuff cheats are worth enabling. I was playing primals game the other day and his sov was swimming. I'm not sure what mods he had. But when you see odd stuff like that it's worth looking at. 

 

I actually would like a replay feature added to the game, in the way distant future. In Starcraft I generally try to review all my matches. Sometimes after reviewing my games I realize that my opponent didn't cheat, which I assume everytime I loose, but I was just being slow at responding to the game. It's a good way to improve my game play. 

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

@Jeff

Call of the Titans, I never considered that!  Good point.  I don't remember ever using it, but the description fits the bill.  One thing that suggests it wasn't used is that I see 'uncalled' units on the map, but they could have been in cities during the casting.  Still, Call of the Titans would do the job, bringing a lot of units within striking distance of my city that turn. (hopefully Frog isn't reading this and getting idea... lol  -- of course I mean hopefully he is getting ideas)

Thanks!

@Illauna

Agreed about the replay feature!  One of the things I appreciate most about the Elemental franchise is that it's challenging.  I'll get into a situation, lose badly, and then go back and try different strategies to see if I can figure out a winning strategy.  Often, adjusting just a few tactics changes a crushing loss into a crushing victory.  A replay would really help to spot the 'odd stuff' as you put it, and let us learn from that.  Games that teach are best of both worlds -- learn while having fun!

For the situation in this thread, I thought I understood what the AI could/couldn't do, and when it did something I didn't understand I knew the smarter minds here would be able to figure it out.

Thanks again to all!  :)

My biggest take-home lesson from this is to maximize 'buffer' distance between my city borders and my territory borders, so I have some reaction time before invading AI armies can reach and attack a city.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nick-Danger, reply 6
I've lost this game, I lost the city and with no good prospects for new cities I'm toast.  Knowing what's coming (which is cheating of course) there's a chance I could do a few things to delay his approaching armies (Haunted Army spell) then Tornado the stack (or stacks as a couple of times he's split the stack into 2 stacks) then try to mop up.  I'm hoping that AI armies now reform (they didn't a few versions ago) and if so this would only delay the inevitable (and drain most of my mana).

Actually this wasn't cheating since you already had encountered it and knew from that point you lost the game. So, what you were doing is salvaging what you could from the game, which I say is not likely a win scenario.

Call of Titans would do the trick, put the army right on top of the air shard and boom... the stack of 11 I pointed out would be on your city in 1 turn... sad news.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting parrottmath, reply 10
Actually this wasn't cheating since...
By cheating, I meant my going back to an earlier save and, using the knowledge from my game (where the 11 army stack took my city), then my trying to avoid that attack by doing stuff I didn't do originally.  I wasn't including anything you helped me with.  Sorry if I was unclear.

I still may go back and try it, just for the challenge.  I like the some aspects of this game (3 good city locations and 4 death shards), dislike other aspects (no more good city locations anywhere nearby).  I've thought of a few tricks I could try, such as offering tribute to get 30 turns of no attacks (which might be repeatable a few times).  That'd buy me some time.  If there were more good city sites it could work...

Call of Titans would do the trick, put the army right on top of the air shard and boom... the stack of 11 I pointed out would be on your city in 1 turn... sad news.
Call of the Titans would be deadly.  Your map shows at least 21 armies (plus at least 1 single army I think near my border).  Talk about overkill  lol

Your 'show map' mod is very useful!

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

..... I'd love to drop a falling star on that stack of 11 armies xD

 

It'd probably obliterate 3/4 of them in first turn then kill the rest next turn and you can take the city back with a single skelly provided taht you have enough fire shards to amplify the falling star's power that much.

 

I'm curious though, what difficulty are you playing on?

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Illauna, reply 8
Sometimes when you see stuff cheats are worth enabling. I was playing primals game the other day and his sov was swimming. I'm not sure what mods he had. But when you see odd stuff like that it's worth looking at. 

 

I actually would like a replay feature added to the game, in the way distant future. In Starcraft I generally try to review all my matches. Sometimes after reviewing my games I realize that my opponent didn't cheat, which I assume everytime I loose, but I was just being slow at responding to the game. It's a good way to improve my game play. 

 

lol so yer one of those that thinks if somebody beats you that they have cheated. lol what a sport a bad one at that. Just remember like a gunfigher of old, there's always somebody better than you and usually lots of them. But, it is one reason I don't play online games anymore since age of empires. there's always lots of cheaters too. Those that just can't stand to lose cause they are the scum of the earth and need to prove to themselves they are. lol

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Ericridge, reply 12

..... I'd love to drop a falling star on that stack of 11 armies

It'd probably obliterate 3/4 of them in first turn then kill the rest next turn and you can take the city back with a single skelly provided taht you have enough fire shards to amplify the falling star's power that much.
Falling Star is way way off, unfortunately.  Game is just a bit over 100 turns.  I currently have 2 fire shards, no air.  If I could survive long enough to get the spell tho, yeppers, it'd be very useful.
I'm curious though, what difficulty are you playing on?
Everything Insane, slowest tech rate, highest resources/quests/etc., no wildlands, huge map, 4 AI, no mods, newest DLC (the dead pack, which is a great addition -- the 'terrorize' and the 'kill a unit then get another member of the unit' abilities are very powerful).

If anyone wants a save of the starting position (before any moving/etc.) I can provide it.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Ahh okay thank you nick danger, so I need to move up on difficulty level it seems but I'd have to wait til 1.5 patch to fix the CTD bugs xD

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

My first thought when I read this post was Call of the Titans, which could instantly bring together a lot of enemy armies in your territory. To the best of my knowledge I've not seen the AI cast Call of the Titans, but on Insane, who knows! I would expect it to have researched the tech by turn 100 on Insane.

Good luck with the whole Insane thing. The parameters you're using are interesting, I assume the idea is that you have enough space to get established before you bump into an AI. I would personally expect slower tech speed to make life harder for you, the AI gets such crazy bonuses it will barely notice, but it will slow down your start I guess however it might mean that you have more time to get your empire set up before the AI starts completing the Spell of Making and/ or researching the infinite techs.

Personally I dropped down from Insane after my one victory, it was too much like hard work. I'm currently using Primal Savage's XtraSavage mod to get a Ridiculous+ difficulty level.