Early game is first 15-20 minutes...if you are a frontliner or suicide and are building a fleet (as you should be), you are not getting a titan within that time frame unless you receive an ungodly amount of feed or are next to a noob...

Eco players usually don't bring out titans or feed for titans before the 15-20 minute mark (vasari were occasional exception, but mainly for reasons nullified by the new patch)...when they do (which is usually around that time), the game has basically become the mid-game...

In certain 1v1s or 2v2s with roomy and/or unusual maps, I can see someone getting a titan quickly but probably not in what would qualify as the early game...even in the 1v1 between greg and auqia where they were completely separated by the pirate base, it took about 20-25 or so minutes for auqia to get his eradica and by then you are in the mid-game....

It currently takes about 20 minutes minimum to rush to a Titan (without feed, fastest settings).  No matter which way that you do it.  Or Race.

I've tested all the possible approaches... Scuttle your cap ship, only tech one Cap crew upgrade, scuttle all frigates.  Only colonize adjoining roid.  Use TEC's tier 1 factory cost reductions.  You name it... It takes an inordinate amount of time.  Where you are vulnerable all the while!  The only thing that makes a real difference, is whether you have an abundance of neutrals nearby.

For the original poster:  Just so you know, Flak are the hard counter for corvettes.  Simple as that.  But as this long thread demonstrates, for many other reasons listed, a combination with Light Frigates, or just pure LF (if you have built proportionately enough) do the job better. 

IMO, Its wrong that a lower tier ship - for example: Corvettes, so effectively counters a higher tier ship - LRF (long range frigates).

Thought I might as well revive this one rather than post a new thread.

In complete agreement.

Frankly, I don't understand the corvettes. What is their purpose in the game? Why are they even here? Seems even the game itself is confused: Strong vs. frigates, cruisers, capital ships, strike craft and titans. Well, genius description, you just listed every category of unit. What is this tier 1 'strong-vs-everything' unit doing in the game?

From the the time of their very announcement they've seemed like a sort of cop-out to me: Fighters die too hard to flak,  effectively removing one part of the food pyramid from the unit counter chart and allowing bombers to become much too powerful (which in turn creates all sorts of other problems, such as heavy cruisers not being used), but instead of then solving the problem by boosting fighters or making flak less effective (which would solve the LRM supremacy problem by allowing carrier cruisers to counter them as intended as well as solving the bomber problem), the Corvette is introduced as an anti-strike craft and anti-LRM vessel. The game then still has useless fighters that can't suppress bombers like they were meant to and now also introduces a new problem in the form of a tier 1 craft that is 'strong vs everything'. Go Rebellion!

If somebody would care to shed some light on how the corvettes are good for the game and were better than simply boosting fighters, I'd like to hear. Also, if somebody has the armor type counter chart for the corvette (the one with HC: 150% damage vs light armor etc) I'd like to see that too.

They are good because it gives another option of what to build early game, and counters long range well, not forcing you to build your own long range frigates (or flak). Corvettes are easily countered by light frigates and flak frigates, and fighters, and illuminators too (last one is a bit strange though)

They are good against everything, because you can have many of them easily. This makes them good counters for capital ships, titans, and every bigger object too. Of course in their infocard devs should have written they are good against bombers, long range, and titans.  In massed numbers everything is good against everything, just saying, no matter what bonuses or penalties they have.

If you have a nice middle game fleet composition, or late game, corvettes should never be a problem for you to kill, though they can surprise you and you may lose 1-2 important things before decimating them.

I don't agree with regard to how they are good for the game. What is happening isn't that we've been 'given another option' as much as its StarClad still not fixing the carrier/fighter to fill the anti-LRM role it should have had for literally years now (it's a core Sins flaw that has gone unfixed since the very release of the original game!). It's interesting to note how it's so deep into the community's way of thinking that you aren't even stating the Carrier as the counter to LRM, but the Flak! It speaks volumes of the size of the problem. Essentially, I'm just reiterating the point from my post above here: They didn't fix the fighter, instead they just threw in a new ship that wasn't needed and doesn't fit in. Senseless - and what a waste of time, they could have just buffed the fighter and: problem solved! You don't improve the game by ignoring an obviously flawed unit (fighter) and just patching it up by adding a new unit that completely screws over the general balance (as SageWon pointed out, the corvette counters LRM at tech 1 when it should have been 2/3 in the form of the fighter), you improve the game by fixing any core problems and only adding new units into roles that make sense/are vacant.

So basically, the game should have been:

Light Frigate < LRM < Carrier < Flak < Light Frigate

Instead, they've gone with:

-screw carriers! OK, you can bomb stuff but that's it.

Light Frigate < LRM < Corvette < Flak < Light Frigate

- So as we see, there actually aren't any options added, they just substituted a system that was perfectly fine (but broken due to a missing link) with this mish-mash unit.

why don't you ask developers in the 1.51 version thread? if it bothers you this much.

Peronally I like corvettes, they are not fighter v2.0 as they have other roles and not that good against bombers.

Most smaller ships are not build for their power levels, but for their specific counters and abilities. You have to keep that in mind, before passing judgement.

The LRM of TEC is a weak ship with paper thin armor..... but it packs enormous firepower at extreme range.

It is not supposed to enter the fray..... it is meant to be in the backyard softening up hostile targets of importance.

If you take 50 LRMs against a mid level Titan... they will die.

But if you keep that mid level Titan busy with some other stuff and then sneak in the LRMs, it goes right from weak to devastating. Because even if you only have 20 LRMs now, because you diversified your fleet, those DPS are the very last ting that the enemy titans needs at the moment.

Or take the anti strike craft ships. Heavy armor but their weapons dont do much against anything but fighers, corvetttes and bombers. Does that make them worthless? Not really, they make sure that those enemy corvettes dont do to much to your ships.

You have to understand, that that merely means that they do descent damage against the things mentioned.

That does not make them overpowered in any way, because as you might have noticed, their armor is basically nonexistant. And their damage output isnt very high.

I also think that you should try playing online a few times, the days of LRM spam are long gone.The only faction who can still use LRM Spam with some changes of success are the Advent Loyalists - because the Coronatas devastationg Unity Mass ability does compensate for the Illuminators poor focus fire power.

A diverse fleet with corvette support is a major threat..... a fleet consisting of only corvettes is not.

So in reality the corvettes arent really strong against that many things.

The developers designed the corvettes as "larger as strike crafts but smaller than normal ships". That makes them very vulnerable to flak and things that can target multiple enemies at once.

Actually the illuminator does descent against corvette swarms because of that.

Which is fine, because there isnt that much other stuff for which illuminators are still usefull.

I dont think that there is a reason to throw civility over board, is there?

Fighters VS bombers have only one big issue and this is where I partially agree with you. 

Extensive testing revealed that fighers do in fact hard counter bombers.

forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/438860/

They are just doing so too slowly, respectivly... the bombers rebuild to quick.

If you have 100 fighter wings and your enemy has 100 bomber wings, the fighers win.... in the end.

But usually your important ships have died long ago against the enemies bombers by that time.

The most elegant solution here, is imho quadrupling the time needed to construct a bomber wing. That way fighter superiority would be not so worthless, right now you are actually better off if you build bombers yourself.

While bomber spamming is indeed a certain balancing problem, it is not the only reason why Heavy Cruisers dont shine.

While Heavy cruisers are good against most things, there are just a bit to many things that are awesome against heavy cruisers, too.

Heavy cruisers are loosing to:

TEC Starbase.... Big Red Button anyone?

Advent Starbase.... Mass Disorientation + Meteor Storm makes sure that you cannot really put in in danger.

Vasari Starbase..... when slightly supported unless you have insane numbers..... and then you still take severe losses.

Most Titans have little trouble decimating large fleets of heavy cruisers, egven the Anklyon can hold the line against them.

And they cost money.... losses cost money..... with carriers... all your strikecraft just died? Just wait 2 minutes and they are all back for free.

Corvettes

• can hunt down fleeing capital ships without relying on slow and expensive carriers.
• can cripple Titans
• make an excellent early game unit
• are cheap allowing you to field large numbers in no time
• Are very fast and can be used to stop harrassing units who otherwise would do a lot of damage (Ogrovs squads)
• at least partially counter bombers and help you divide the enemy firepower away from your important ships in late game.

I also think that you should try playing online a few times, the days of LRM spam are long gone.The only faction who can still use LRM Spam with some changes of success are the Advent Loyalists - because the Coronatas devastationg Unity Mass ability does compensate for the Illuminators poor focus fire power.

And you are wrong about LRM supremacy.... those days are long gone.

In fact, the LRM has become somewhat of an uncommon sight on the battlefield. You dont need fighters to counter LRMs.... there are plenty of other things in the game who will do that just fine... limiting the LRMs usefulness.

The Illuminator never ever got back its past glory when a bug made it do composite damage, steamrolling everything. 

Its lack of focused fire power means that any reasonable amount of illuminators can be stopped by singular hard targets (Titans, starbases, heavy defense in general)

For example, a single unsupported Orky can decimate Illuminator fleets in excess of 150 ships without trouble.

Only with Unity Mass on the Coronata and the hefty damage increase from Advent Loyalists, they become somewhat viaable.

If you make them do terrible against corvettes, too, you will never see a single illuminator again, instead you will face flak and flak and more flak, should you decide lean heavily on corvettes in the earlier stages of the game.

You are incorrect in your asumptions:

Corvettes have been very good for this game..... they made the early game a lot more diverse and interesting.

You see.... LF expansion does have advantages over corvette expansion... but it has disadvantages too.

You know have to decide.... to pre assess what your nearest enemy is doing....and if the risk of choosing either is worth the possible benefits.

Before Rebellion, it was pretty much

1. Build a few LFs for initial expansion

2. Spam LRM

3. End of game.

Corvettes are viable combat units in the early game and remain useful in late game, for their abilities and firepower drawing numbers.

But by no means, they are overpowered.

They did not broke the system, they made it at least partialy work.Otherwise the only unit you would ever face in combat is the Carrier.... because its bombers happen to counter enemy titans.

It's not really true, it works many times online even against decent players, and many times I killed titans with them (once a Vorastra, the opponent thought that ship will win because of the area damage.. He was wrong though it was a very close call, like all ships under 100-50 health..)

It is not entirely true, they can do suprprisingly well against titans (though not against level4+ ones that have brutal AoE's)

but if there are bombers, your losses will not justify their cost.

I hate carriers and strikecraft, spamming vettes is more fun! You guys are also extremely undervaluing ilums, only one of few reliable options if u dont go drone hosts.

I don't know how to respond to this, ARESIV... It seems to me you missed the points I was making. At least, I don't think your lenghty post adequately addresses the issues I pointed out. The main points I made were:

- agreeing with the quoted post above that it's problematic that the low-tech corvette counters even higher tech units, even  if it isn't a hard counter (and yes, I understand that it isn't 'strong vs everything', that was poking fun at the fact they put such a ridiculous unit description in the game: how would I, as a new player, know what a unit is good for if it's just 'good vs all'?). In the case of every other unit, the rule is that you'll need to develop your tech level to be able to beat the new weapon the opponent brings, hence creating a logical progression of technology, a tech race (LF forcing you to tech up to LRF to counter, LRF forcing you to tech Carriers (not flak, damnit!) to counter). The Corvette - at least in part - breaks this rule (mainly by marginalizing the already underused fighter even more), and I don't think the game is better for it.

- arguing that one of the main reasons for putting the Corvette in the game in the first place seems to have been to provide a counter to long range frigates, but that adding a new unit rather than fixing an existing, broken one (fighter) is a poor way to balance a game. If the fighter was made stronger (or flak weaker) it would mean that the balance of forces that was intended from day one, original Sins (LF < LRF < Carrier < Flak < LF) would have worked, and that throughout all these many years of Sins existence, LRF spam would never have been a problem and a dominant strategy. Rebellion brought the Corvette, and thus 'fixes' the LRF problem, but because the fighter is still subpar and therefore the bomber too strong, both the fighter-carrier and the Heavy Assault Cruiser remain underused. That's gain 1 new unit, 'lose' two old units. One step forward, two steps back.

*

I don't have anything in particular against the Corvette, I think it was a great move creating a small ship so Sins encompasses everything from the fly-sized strike craft to the behemoth titan with truly everything in between - it made perfect sense putting in both something utterly gigantic, and something very small. I just wish the developers would have looked more at what worked and what didn't in the core game, corrected that first, and then given the corvette a more clearly defined role rather than attempt to use it to patch up the game's existing problems (while creating new ones).