Burress Burress

Hero Exp Split- Bad Design or Really Bad Design?

Hero Exp Split- Bad Design or Really Bad Design?

I cannot understand the reason for this design decision. It seems to add needless complexity and discomfort for the player without being fun or making any sense.

First, the making sense part. Champions are people who become developmentally handicapped in the presence of other champions. They are smart as a whip sitting back and letting 6 squads dismantle the opposition, taking notes and learning the ways of uber-pwnage. But with two champions, what happens, is there only one pen and paper for the entire squad? Do they have to take turns writing and split up each other's notes afterwards?

I know this rule was instituted when it was discovered that champions were so powerful that you could beat the game with them without ever building units. This strategy offended those in power long ago, and since then champions were neutered with exp split, general exp decline, and spiced up with that just three to six crummy levels til I get the cool ability feeling. At the same time, units got an extreme buff, and now you can beat the game easily without ever using a champion (or having a champion be useful), but there is no outcry. What gives there?

Now there is the effect on the player. Players have to build an army for each champion, or resign themselves to just having fancy backstories to their unrest reduction in some city. The player must manage these multiple armies, which will never have enough map to level them all, all the while wondering, is this how Peter Venkman felt when Egon told him to never cross the streams? I mean you CAN use them together to win that hard battle (maybe against a giant marshmallow man), with all that juicy exp... which gets split up to the point its just one more stride on the long mile to level 10 or 12, or whatever level a champion actually will feel heroic at. Fellow champions are each other's kryptonite, which makes it a difficult strategic decision whether to use them together, but it's like a choice between crummy or crummier to the player.

This forces a player who knows the split exists to play with far more micromanagement and complexity in the hope, in my experience in vain anyway, that your heroes will eventually be, you know, heroic. I mean make it to the level ups that are fun (the ones that aren't +1-3 to a stat that doesn't make much difference). Players who don't know it exists will just wonder "why are the trees so long"?

I know this is a negative post, but hey, I strongly feel this is a bad decision through and through. The game will be better and more friendly and logical to every newbie, at the least. But I think it may even make people who are strategy diehards have fun teaming up heroes without having to worry about fighting 2-5 times as many battles to get where almost no champion but the sovereign gets in a normal game now. It makes sense and it is a fun, simple strategy to band champions together, and it is bad design to discourage logical, simple, fun gameplay. It is not unthinkable there was another way to encourage more complex gameplay without killing the fun rpg parts of the game or forcing players to juggle making and using many armies.

Btw, I think the game is great and should get deep and wide acclaim, but I think decisions like this endanger it to a possible dilution with "meh" because it doesn't pander to the most visceral and powerful source of fun in games with rpg aspects, the ego identification with heroes and the player's character. I have posted about this before, but basically every game that has ruled this genre has been at best a decent strategy game suped up with a fat layer of ego satisfaction. I think this is a great strategy game that has been drowning out its own ego attraction in the name of balance. 

1,047,538 views 238 replies +2 Loading…
Reply #126 Top

Quoting puntarenas, reply 124



Quoting parrottmath,
reply 117

What I would like to see the devs do is reduce the effects of the XP divide. Rather than be 1/2 1/3 1/4, something more gradual.


Fibonacci comes to mind, just divide XP through F(n):

1
1
2
3
5
8
13
21
34
1 hero   -  XP /1

2 heroes - XP /1

So the game would encourage you to use two heroes in your stacks who would "earn twice the XP" then. A new hero trait that doubles XP gain for any hero who fights alone in an army would fit in very well. Encouraging the use of two heroes also make sense as you could roleplay one for support (Healer, Commander) and one for offensive demands. Could spice heroes up a bit.

3 heroes - XP/2

4 heroes - XP/3

5 heroes - XP/5

...

 
End of puntarenas's quote

I think this approach could work out very nicely...

Is there a way to mod/test this?

Reply #127 Top

I like putting XP split in on the 3rd hero.

 

Maybe go 1, 1, 2/3, 1/2, 2/5 etc

 

 Another idea is having the techs that add to army size decrease XP split.

 

 

Reply #128 Top

There is not a word here with which I could disagree.

XP split and reduction just shuts down one possible strategy and gives nothing in exchange.

Heroes are mostly single men units, with nothing that shines.

They are not fun to play with now. Except maybe the sovereign, and only because it's you... Otherwise, he mostly sucks in combat (like all other heroes) compared with simple troops. I did it on challenging: build armies with three troops and wipe out the map... Not a big deal.

I've shut down my beta test and sworn not to play LH again till that restriction is lifted. If I want to play troops only, I don't need FE:LH. I have plenty of other games for that. Heck, for that matter, even Total War does almost as good with generals, who are at least useful, and it is a long stride before LH in the tactical field.

If that's what people want the game to be so be it ; then make each hero a general with serious troops management abilities and change the focus of the game with less maging and more tactical combat. What we have now is not heroic fantasy (where are the heroes ???) nor is it a wargame (where are flank attacks, morale, hill top positionning etc...) ; it's in a noman's land that looks more like a bog that a peak...

Yves

 

PS: and no, any scheme to keep some split up is unsatisfiying. The fact is that now you can win the game with troops only. There is no reason why you should not be able to do the same with heroes only (after all, we're in a Heroic fantasy setting!) ; it just doesn't have to be as obvious as it was before. But troops enhancement brought in LH just ensure that.

+1 Loading…
Reply #129 Top

Quoting moi-meme, reply 128

I've shut down my beta test and sworn not to play LH again till that restriction is lifted.
End of moi-meme's quote

Hunger strike or you're not serious.

Reply #130 Top

Quoting davrovana, reply 129


Quoting moi-meme, reply 128
I've shut down my beta test and sworn not to play LH again till that restriction is lifted.

Hunger strike or you're not serious.
End of davrovana's quote

 

Bah... Hunger strikes are overused these days.

LH beta strike is much more uncommon and thus carry more weight! :banhammer:

Reply #131 Top


Not eating is easy. Not playing LH... that's a much more significant thing.

Reply #132 Top

Quoting OliverFA_306, reply 131


Not eating is easy. Not playing LH... that's a much more significant thing.
End of OliverFA_306's quote

I find it fairly easy, considering that currently Legendary Heroes is actually legendary Hero that is actually your sovereign.

 

For those of you who like it, are you playing above Challenging? Is it possible that your not finding an issue because of higher available XP?

Reply #133 Top

Quoting mqpiffle, reply 111


Quoting OliverFA_306, reply 109There is an important factor which is being fun.

And having a bunch of OP heroes running around with no concern for trained troops would be fun?  I personally think not.

We have been through all of this in the FE beta.  There are really good reasons these things are the way they are.  If you don't want to accept it that's fine (it is your opinion after all) but what's being asked of this thread is to undo all of the testing that went on back then which told SD that the non splitting of xp was broken.  And I'm not trying to come off as 'been there done that' (I could have said that earlier if I wanted to play that card) but it has been hashed out in detail previously.

The reason hero xp is split is because they are so much more powerful than your average trained unit.
End of mqpiffle's quote

They are supposed to be more powerful. There is a difference between that and what is happening on the battlefield. If I have two heroes who's combined level 7 lets me kill a level 14 dragon, then I'm with you. It doesn't work that way in practice though. Those level 7 heroes would just get eaten for lunch, as they should be. Unfortunately, putting two heroes together means that they will automatically be under level for anything interesting or remotely tough. And no, I make full use of troops.

 

In FE, I run two heroes. They are not anywhere as leveled as when I run one a lone. I was willing to play it that way though because they could kick tail. What has happened in LH though is that they nerfed the starting hero damage to leave room for what happens at end game, they have reduced over all XP and they have made monsters much tougher. They also reduced Hero damage because special abilities can miss and they have increased monster resistance. This translates directly into the fact that running just two heroes together is a fail because of how important levels are.

 

Which means that all those legendary heroes sit at a town reducing unrest.

Reply #134 Top

Legendary Entertainers!

Coming soon to your local tavern!

No WAY you'll cause unrest after seeing THIS show!

Reply #135 Top

Quoting fenwe, reply 132

Quoting OliverFA_306, reply 131

Not eating is easy. Not playing LH... that's a much more significant thing.

I find it fairly easy, considering that currently Legendary Heroes is actually legendary Hero that is actually your sovereign.

 

For those of you who like it, are you playing above Challenging? Is it possible that your not finding an issue because of higher available XP?
End of fenwe's quote

Perhaps I did not explain myself properly. I will summarize my opinion:

- Fallen Enchantress is probably the best Fantasy TBS/4X since HoMM3. When I tried it, I got very positively impressed, and still am.

- Unfortunatelly I am not impressed by LH "improvements". IMHO they don't add much to the game, and too much time and efforts have been wasted in changing mechanics that already worked (better is the enemy of good).

Is it possible that the best game of the last times can be followed by a very weak "expansion"? In my opinion, looks like it will.

Reply #136 Top

Quoting fenwe, reply 133
In FE, I run two heroes. They are not anywhere as leveled as when I run one a lone. I was willing to play it that way though because they could kick tail. What has happened in LH though is that they nerfed the starting hero damage to leave room for what happens at end game, they have reduced over all XP and they have made monsters much tougher. They also reduced Hero damage because special abilities can miss and they have increased monster resistance. This translates directly into the fact that running just two heroes together is a fail because of how important levels are.
End of fenwe's quote

I can see your point. But completely removing XP splitting goes way too far in the other direction and virtually forces the player to stack all heroes together to maximise XP gain.

Maybe some scaled formula like was being talked about on the previous page could work but I remain unconvinced about any of the solutions I have seen so far.

Reply #137 Top

Quoting Mistwraithe, reply 136

I can see your point. But completely removing XP splitting goes way too far in the other direction and virtually forces the player to stack all heroes together to maximise XP gain.
 
End of Mistwraithe's quote

Wouldn't be a problem anyway, because you still were forced to find a sane ratio between heroes and regular troops in your stacks. Otherwise strong enemies would just wipe the floor with your heroes only stack (at least as soon as you get out of mana).

 

Reply #138 Top

I would prefer that heroes get performance-related XP, for using tactical debuffs and healing troops as well as doing straight-up damage.  A hero that just sits on the back line doing nothing should get zero XP.

Reply #139 Top

I almost wonder whether or not it would make more sense to implement the XP split for troops as well, ducks for cover.  This would mean you then can't game the system no matter if you are running heroes or henchmen.

Reply #140 Top

Quoting halmal242, reply 139

I almost wonder whether or not it would make more sense to implement the XP split for troops as well, ducks for cover.  This would mean you then can't game the system no matter if you are running heroes or henchmen.
End of halmal242's quote

That makes a lot of sense. Either everybody splits or everybody doesn't.

Reply #141 Top

That is what I was thinking, having a mixed system just leads to the problem of hardship for those that aren't in the non-split group and then you get meta gaming to overcome the problem.  Just make a flat xp split and then increase xp across the board slightly to compensate for increased xp split and then done.

Reply #142 Top

In fact I think that most of the complainers are not in the "non-split" group but in the "use the same coherent mechanic for everybody" group.

Reply #143 Top

You can add EXP penalties for multiple Champions without the ridiculous amounts the are now. Maybe a 10-20% reduction in earned XP per hero or something along those lines. Right now I feel like I have no real choice to use more than one Champion in a stack which is especially irritating in the early game. I mean, I'm having some difficulty filling my army and here comes my first Champion... which I promptly ship off to my city to sit like a bum until his own army can be built. Kinda lame, especially since (IMO) Champions really aren't that good anyway, my own troops tend to outperform them most of the time.

Reply #144 Top

The gameplay reason for XP split is to prevent a "stack of doom" of heroes. That's understandable and a good reason. But Legendary Heroes has already been redesigned to control the number of heroes the player can get, by tying it to fame and therefore requiring the player to develop their civilization. (Great decision, by the way) This means that there are other ways to control the power level of heroes in the game.

The fame mechanic can be balanced to create a desired hero progression. An example outline is as follow:

Early Game: Sovereign + 1 Hero

Mid Game: Sovereign + 2-3 Heroes

Late Game: Sovereign + 4-5 Heroes

This way, the game can prevent the player from potentially acquiring a "stack of doom" until well into the late game. At that point, I don't see the harm in a powerful 5-6 sov/hero stack, as it can be just plain fun, and the game is called Legendary Heroes after all. There is also a tactical disadvantage in that all your heroes are in one place, and so are less efficient in covering ground. They are also more susceptible to strategic spells - which are another great way to balance hero stacks. A powerful strategic spell that only affects heroes would be a great addition to the game.

So I'm of the opinion that the problem that hero XP splitting was designed to solve can instead be solved much more elegantly and less punitively. I think it should be removed.

The consistency that this would provide is a good thing to strive for. Inconsistent mechanics that hurt the player are usually a bad idea - especially one where the player may not even realize it until they happen to browse the forums.

+1 Loading…
Reply #145 Top

Quoting jwallstone, reply 144
This way, the game can prevent the player from potentially acquiring a "stack of doom" until well into the late game.
End of jwallstone's quote

This is already in effect.  Why change core game mechanics at this point?

Removing this strategic element (XP split) from the game would make stacking heroes and not training units a no-brainer and you will soon find a thread where people are complaining about the silliness of being able to ramp up heroes without thought of trained units.  Not to mention as each of your heroes would level up the other heroes in the party would level up that much faster and easier, because heroes gain a lot of power at each subsequent level.

What you all are asking for is ridiculous, if you would just think about for even one very small moment. 

I would be ok with retooling the XP split if it remained fairly significant...but why spend resources in changing what's not broken?

Reply #146 Top

Quoting mqpiffle, reply 145

Quoting jwallstone, reply 144This way, the game can prevent the player from potentially acquiring a "stack of doom" until well into the late game.

This is already in effect.  Why change core game mechanics at this point?

Removing this strategic element (XP split) from the game would make stacking heroes and not training units a no-brainer and you will soon find a thread where people are complaining about the silliness of being able to ramp up heroes without thought of trained units.  Not to mention as each of your heroes would level up the other heroes in the party would level up that much faster and easier, because heroes gain a lot of power at each subsequent level.

What you all are asking for is ridiculous, if you would just think about for even one very small moment. 

I would be ok with retooling the XP split if it remained fairly significant...but why spend resources in changing what's not broken?
End of mqpiffle's quote

And that's the perfect situation to raise the number of units from 3/4/5/6 to 3/5/7/9 (or perhaps even more) and make the game feel more epic and enjoyable ;) Plus, being able to fight more troops makes the champions more like LEGENDARY HEROES :D

What is ridiculous IMHO is having a mechanic that behaves in one way for trained troops and in another way for champions. It can be perfect from the point of view of the number-crunching strategy game designer, but this is not supposed to be an abstract game, it is supposed to represent a "real" world and then weird behaviours spoil the fun.

Reply #147 Top

Quoting Mistwraithe, reply 136


I can see your point. But completely removing XP splitting goes way too far in the other direction and virtually forces the player to stack all heroes together to maximise XP gain.

Maybe some scaled formula like was being talked about on the previous page could work but I remain unconvinced about any of the solutions I have seen so far.
End of Mistwraithe's quote

Yes, I understand your point and am concerned by it.

I would suggest that instead of splitting up already scarce XP, heroes should get a bonus XP because they are leading troops. It should be significant and increase with the number of troops led per hero present. Something like +50% for a 1-1 ratio, +100% for a 1-2 ratio. But a mere +10%for 5 heroes and on troop...

In addition, I would suggest that all heroes should get army wide bonuses of some sort, but that only one is allowed to "lead", and give his bonuses to the troops. Others would give nothing, or maybe only half their bonus. These bonuses would be available only for trained troops.

Combined, these advantages would give positive incentives not to stack heroes, without hampering the heroes should you decide to stack them. You would likely want to have troops along with your heroes.

 

Yves

 

 

Reply #148 Top

Quoting fenwe, reply 133



They are supposed to be more powerful. There is a difference between that and what is happening on the battlefield. If I have two heroes who's combined level 7 lets me kill a level 14 dragon, then I'm with you. It doesn't work that way in practice though. Those level 7 heroes would just get eaten for lunch, as they should be. Unfortunately, putting two heroes together means that they will automatically be under level for anything interesting or remotely tough. And no, I make full use of troops.

 
End of fenwe's quote

um two level 7 heroes won't kill a dragon alone, but in my last game, i actually killed a dragon with a level 8 defender and a level 7 mage and some support units. a level 8 defender can actually tank a dragon long enough to get the dragon killed by a handful of mage or archer units (or a damage specced mage). later  i split up my armies to cover more ground, and the defender tanked a drake and 4 triplets of pack drakes for about 15 turns or so (the time it takes to kill ~500 HP worth of dragons with 2 frost mage units)

that was on "hard" difficulty. no idea if it also works on expert/ridiculous/insane; don't actually care, tbh. the game doesn't have to be balanced for super high difficulties.

don't know what you're doing wrong, honestly.

Reply #149 Top

Quoting mqpiffle, reply 145


Removing this strategic element (XP split) from the game would make stacking heroes and not training units a no-brainer and you will soon find a thread where people are complaining about the silliness of being able to ramp up heroes without thought of trained units.
End of mqpiffle's quote

I don't understand how you get to your conclusion. Having a few heroes leaves you with plenty of open army spots for trained troops. 2 sov/heroes and 3 trained troops early game, or 3-4 sov/heroes and 3-4 trained troops mid game seems pretty reasonable to me. I don't see why people would just neglect trained troops at all.

 

Quoting moi-meme, reply 147

In addition, I would suggest that all heroes should get army wide bonuses of some sort, but that only one is allowed to "lead", and give his bonuses to the troops. Others would give nothing, or maybe only half their bonus. These bonuses would be available only for trained troops.

End of moi-meme's quote

This I think is an excellent idea. The tradeoff of stacking heroes is that you have fewer stacks of units being led by heroes, so you can cover less ground. If having the presence of heroes gives a bonus to the stack, but the bonus is identical regardless of the number of heroes in the stack, this would encourage you to spread around your heroes to lead multiple stacks.

Reply #150 Top

Another point about the legendary heroes is that when using units in battle, they actually become less useful as they take damage. You start with a stack of 9 gets hit lose 2 units now it is a stack of 7. Their damage potential has gone down. The Heroes part of the game simply put is that the heroes potential at the start of the battle and at the end of the battle is the same no matter the damage they get in battle.

I for one do not want to change the mechanic, the game has already set mechanics to allow one to play with a stack of doom of heroes by creating Henchmen. The are heroes lite. The stack of doom people are mentioning is easily moddable into the game. Where are the comments from the people who have actually played the game without a hero split, to give us all insight on how much more fun the game is with it.

As to the mechanic for the split amongst the units you have in the battle, there is already a mechanic like this called you get less XP for having superior forces to your enemy.

The point is that the hero stacks should be seperate. At this point all I see is rhetoric as to why we should have no XP split... I played it with no XP split, wasn't anymore fun, in fact I just kept only one stack of units until I couldn't hold anymore, and then filled up another stack... it was less strategic and I got bored quickly (and still didn't get the XP I was hoping it would provide, just not enough lairs for that).