No WMJ becomes standard online PvP rule

Seems like the abilities that should be heavily nerfed in the next patch then...

I aint playin against stuff that are so hard to counter (or cannot be at all), and the other factions have nothing even near that strong.. (like my favourite one TR, and AR, but I understand wail is OP the way it is now), and even a much worse player than me can easily defeat me if I make one wrong move even with a 3 times larger fleet.

So I am happy to have this new rule

Just wait....I'm sure Aresiv and Radio will be here shortly to explain to you all how these things are perfectly fine, balanced, and easily countered....

LOL I'm curously waiting

No Weapons of Massive Jerkishness?

Well, seems time for the MP community to put together a "Competitive Mod"

The problem is that (almost) everybody thinks that these things must be changed, but nobody agrees on how to change them

You make it sound like a really new occurance.

Not sure why people still have a problem with Wail after it was nerfed. The Maw and Jumping Orkies of Death are another story however.

Let me guess, Advent Rebels are your fav faction.

Your respectful announcement of my imminent arrival is duly noted. Still, people of my rank should be announced properly... i. e. "His majesty the emperor of the known universe ARES IV (ARES 4 btw) will arrive shortly here to enlighten the populace of the forum in the one true faith.... 

Sometimes waiting may not be the wisest of all choices....

But back to topic:

I have written long paragraphs about how to counter wail in the past and I dont feel the need to copy paste them into here. So in the interest of keeping the topic clean I shall merely repeat the most important points: Please use the search function for the long version.

• Wail requires a suitable galaxy, 7 temples of harmony and a lenghty population grow. It is situational, especially as it now does damage your own and allied ships and structures.
• Wail is ineffective against capital ships and Titans.
• Half the people screaming about it are just pissed that their "First one to build 150 ships wins" spam strategy does not work so well against Advent Rebel. That they dont anticipate its use does not help matters naturally. The same people would stand no change against an Orky rush... because you actually need to think a lot better than your enemy if you want to defend against that.
• Advent Rebels have nothing but wail and the - nerfed - Eradica going for them. 

There are several huge balancing issues right now in the game that at the very least put Wail on the last place to be changed:

• TEC Loyalist being up
• Vasari in general being OP:
• Phase Missiles..... it doesnt matter if your Titan is level 1 or Level 10.... phase missiles will pulverise it within 30 seconds.... effortlessy and often with more than 10000 shield points remaining. They are overdue for a substantial nerf, accompanied by a large buff to the advent phase missile block technology.
• Orkulus.... the best starbase in the game... because far harder to counter than all others.
• Orkulus rush..... required skill level to pull off.... low... required skill level to defend against.... Very high. Risk for Vasari: Very low.
• I think that a general nerf of the Orkulus would go a long way to offset the impact the jump capable one has.
• And please Devs.... nerf the HOLY OP ability Disruptor Nanites on the Phase missile turret very hard.... it desperatly needs it.
• Kultorask + fleet = nearly unstoppable..... --> reduce heal values a bit more
• Vorastra + fleet = unstoppable - nerf desperation
• Make Maw interruptable and give it a 10 second duration.
• Kortul the best anti titan capship in the game...... make it somewhat less invincible to anything that is not a Ragnarov.

Once we have buffed the TEC Loyalist and nerfed the Vasari down to the level where they belong... we can discuss Wail. But not before..... right now Wail is arround the only thing that makes a weak faction remotly competive.

Indeed. Nobody of the people who want to have Wail removed alltogehter have made any attempts to balance it or stated what Advent Rebels should get in exchange for its loss.

The Maw would be a lot more bearable imho if it is channeled (10 seconds) and thus interruptable. Right now you hit the button.... and boom the enemy fleet is dead. Sucking in ships more slowly and only crushing them at the end of the vortex would lower the carnage level when countered, but would still be murderous if your enemy isnt paying attention.

We have only one race that is still very op, and that is the Vasari. Once we have gotten them back to normal levels we can make a far better judgment call how the other races needs to be changed.

Only a true elitist uses roman numerals....I bow down to your gentlemanliness...

I wouldn't agree with that...wail discussions have yielded many plausible compensations for AR...

A personal favorite of mine is buffing the techs that respawn destroyed ships...if the techs were easier to acquire (lower tier, maybe one level instead of 2) and/or gave larger percentages, AR would actually have a very strong rush strategy...this is extremely easy to implement and does not make any fundamental changes to the AR...

There have been suggestions for AR to have technology that reduces the cost of research or grants PM blocking (though really PMs need to be directly nerfed)...on that line, I find it interesting that AR have only 7 unique techs while the other races (IIRC) have 8 each, so an entirely different advantage/tech would be nice...

I'm not saying there's a list of 1 million items, but ideas have been put forward...that they also have the 3rd best titan should not be forgotten....that the Vasari titans (at least the VL) are likely to be nerfed in the future only makes the AR more competitive...

Actually, according to some, just VL in general is being banned because of the passive AoE splash damage from the titan.  I think in general you can nit pick a strong point in each race, and we are quickly going to run out of races. 

I say TL should be banned because of level 6 nova and being able to build 2 in 1 gravity well.

I don't play vanilla Sins. Last time I used a TEC/Vasari/Advent faction in a game was at least 2-3 years ago, excluding various prodding and testing in the Rebellion beta; in a sense you can call me the "ignorant and benevolent observer" that so many ethical theories talk about. Wail in it's current form is both hard to get and extremely situational, as it hurts a player's, and ally's, ships/structures.

LOL, so ARESIV shall be read as ARES 4?  You need to put _ between ARES and IV part. I always read it as Aresiv and thought its probably some non-english word of whatever meaning... i even remember thinking for a moment, whether its not some kind of anagram, haha

Sorry for the off-topic

No man, he's not 4. He's Aresi-5. 

It's interesting that it took about 8 months for Wail to finally get banned.  I don't know exactly when the Wail ban became standard or who all pushed for it, but I'm glad it's finally happened.

Qu4r was a big part of it....he played AR for a while and rushed wail as a frontliner all the time, wailing enemy fleets into oblivion while his prog colonized like crazy....

That was before wail affected friendlies, but it'd hardly matter since structures have enough HP and there were no friendly fleets in any of those situations....

Would reducing the damage by half bring wail back in?

Probably...right now moons and volcanics are really lethal, especially for corvettes....if the damage was halved, only full ices, deserts, and terrans would be at all useful....since wail affects SC and corvettes, the lower damage would still be very handy late game even if carriers couldn't be killed out right...

I thought he was Aressss

You get 10 of the most respected MP players together to discuss top 5 issues and then get MP community to sign vote in, then give to StarClad, something might be done.

I'd be happy to just boot Wail out of the game entirely and let it be replaced with something else.  How about some sort of an economic boost ability for the Advent?  They could use something like that.

Halfing the damage imho would make Wail a late game only tech, one you think about when your done researching all other things and can spare the money. 

However in late game all factions have several ways to counter wail.... pretty hard, making that investment highly doubtful.

It is also likely that they will have researched some durability upgrades, so anything below a full sized terran - a rare planet mind you - wont do the job. And if it does not pulverise a large ammount of the enemy fleet, sacrificing a planet sounds like a dumb idea.

Yes, you hated Wail from the first minute on, which is one of the reason I dont consider yourself entirely objective on the matter. For the record, my favourite faction is TEC Loyalist.... I just tend to play Advent to stand a fighting chance and go to Vasari when I have serious intentions of winning.

I am not so sure if your Wail ban is really happening often in MP to be honest.

As Wail is one of the outstanding factional technologies any replacement had to be something very powerful. A economic buff..... is nothing and wont do a bit to have the AR remain competivly. 

The Advent Loyalist have a considerabe superior economy compared to the Advent Rebels in the later stages of the game. It doesnt help them much.

The Advent Loyalists will likely receive another buff in the next patch..... if you weaken the Advent Rebels to much you may merely exchange the role of the unbeloved Advent faction. Instead of avoiding the AL people will avoid the AR.

As far Qu4r.... seriously.... you guys consider yourself to be the "pro scene". And lets face reality.... playing pro is playing rush to death.

And now... you allow Qu4r.... to colonize with a single Mothership..... and leave him umolested long enough to:

• grab high pop planets
• go into 7  - SEVEN! harmony temples.....
• resarch Wail
• wait for the slow population grow.... 

If you leave a dangerous enemy alone for this long..... you really deserve death.

While certainly somewhat lowering the economic drain of early rushes for the AR, I dont think it does remotly compare to Wail... or more importantly to any of the nasty stuff other factions have.

Resarch cost decrease is similar to the above... a small little detail but not in any way mighty.

Advent imho need a GENERAL phase missile block.... if you give a PM block tech only to one advent faction you make the other advent faction instantly worthless the moment a Vasari plays the game. What advent faction should have the higher block can be discussed later, but both advent faction need a high phase missile block, that is not dependent on culture. (It should be on the shield technology)

Thanks.

I think this thread has gotten completely off topic, which was the addition of VL to the list of things banned.