The dead horse of champion distinction.

Wilt thou joineth me in the beating?

I write to you today about the leeches that we refer to as 'imbued champions', and about the general state of hire-able recruits.

The perspective being taken here is the 'spiritual successor to MoM (Master of Magic)' view that has been so verily driven into the ground.

 

Do you remember Warrax the Chaos Warrior? Torin the Chosen? Mystic X the Unknown? Indeed, how could you possibly forget. Each of the champions in MoM had a distinct flavour. They stood out, and progressed in certain ways to particular advantages. In comparison, we have mostly a bunch of office and administrative staff, and all as bland and indistinct as could be managed. Belinda the Office Clerk or Ravashack the Necromancer? Jason the Accountant or Death Stryke the Swordsman? (see 'no brainer')

Now to the leeches. My sovereign imbues champions only so that they may suckle on his/her magical teat? They have intelligence, so they should be able to summon their own magical energy once they have been imbued with the ability by an authorised channeler near them. Hands off my mana! It would also be nice if some of them had inherent ranged magical attacks of certain types (fire, cold, electrical, etc.) that increase in power as they level up.

 

WoM really championed the mantle of post-cataclysmic ravaged barren wastelands. I think champion distinction is one way that FE can display a rich, diverse, and interesting world. I'm not going to go into the mechanics of it right now, as I think that no matter how it's done, it needs to be done somehow and to some degree.

 

Cheers.

 

20,067 views 9 replies
Reply #1 Top

:beer:

Reply #2 Top

Hero differentiation I think is one of those areas where you can just keep improving it forever, it can only get better the more you work at it. But you also do not want it to become too complex, because it makes the RPG part of the game overshadow the 4X part. The balance between different things is as important as the parts themselves.

 

One thing that is bad about it, is that in 0.86 most heroes are "blank slates", their only real defining characteristics are what spelltraits they have. The other traits are generally available from level-ups. Therefore, I think, heroes should be given fairly unique traits that you can't find anywhere else. Like, perhaps a hero hates the Tarth faction and will not fight for them, and gains 20% damage against them (maybe if you ally with them, the hero becomes immobilized and refuses to fight for you). 

Reply #3 Top

Well champion differentiation will get a boost in the next patch. They have repeatedly mentioned how champions now have unique spells like chain lightning. Also even in .86 there are champions with unique items like Scylla's Mace.  I imagine we will also see some more unique traits and items in Beta3 as they have mentioned they are trying to increase champion differentiation.

Reply #4 Top


There are some improvements to look forward to from what I've read of the plans, but I think that champions should be famous (i.e. have a reputation) and have a unique appearance. It adds to the world immersion when characters have a background.

Maybe they should all be on customised mounts so that they stand out more? There is much that could be done, and done quite cheaply too I would venture.

Reply #5 Top

A few traits, a few abilities, and a few personal items would be a good start. It would be cool if some champions had items that you couldn't just take away from them - personal items, like a mount or a sword attuned to the person, or maybe just a personal heirloom.

Reply #6 Top

Maybe a few should not even be able to ride a mount, but get other bonuses instead (to compensate)

 

Anyways, I don't think we can really go wrong in the realm of champion differentiation. If they are all blank slates, they are completely customizable ... and if they have ENORMOUS branching trait trees, I really don't think more complexity in trait decisions can ever go wrong in this one particular instance (as long as we only have a few choices at each particular junction, but they take us down a specific path-set based upon our class, and our early decisions.

Also, going the other way, if they all already start with their own Class, legacy, unique spells, unique abilities, and we can only choose between a few path-sets (He is Zealot Warrior of Aragon, you can choose either Divine Crusader, Soldier of Light, or Rage of God (Bezerker type) subclasses ... and each would have a modicum of branching trait paths.

------------------------

examples

 

Zealot of Aragon -> Divine Crusader, Soldier of Light, Rage of God

 

Warrior of the North -> Blood Bezerker, Soldier of Ice, Barbarian Lord

 

Barbarian -> Blood Bezerker, Conqueror, Barbarian Lord

 

Eastern Dervish -> Sand Bezerker, Soldier of Stone, Prince of Thieves

 

Halfling of the Hills -> Soldier of Stone, Soldier of Light, Prince of Thieves

 

Gared the Rogueling -> Prince of Thieves, Master Assassin, Bow Master

 

Frank the Archer -> Bow Master, Soldier of Wind, Flurry Artist

 

Assassin of the East -> Blade Master, Shadow Arts (assassin/mage combo class with shadow magic and ninjutsu abilities), Master Assassin

 

Assassin of the South -> Fire Dancer (acrobat/mage combo with free weapon enchantments), Bandit Lord, Master Assassin

 

Assassin of the West -> Marksman, Master Assassin, Shadow Dancer (assassin/acrobat combo with stealth abilities)

 

Sharpshooter -> Marksman (better criticals with ranged, higher crit chance), Bow Master(stronger range attacks, various types of "arrow" abilities"), Elite Sharpshooter (100% accuracy w/ ranged ... chances to ignore all armor)

Reply #7 Top

I thought I would put out ideas here. In MoM a few heroes were diverse in an interesting way, the rest were pretty bland. 

Fang the Draconian is awesome because he flies and has fire breathing. Aureus the Golden one... well he is a mediocre caster/ranged attacker, and a mediocre melee attacker. His portrait and names are cool... but thats it. Theres a bunch more like this. Even though they might have one ability that is somewhat useful... its not unique nor exclusive.

My suggestion would be to give each Champion a trait that is based on their race. Then I would suggest having a pool of 20 or so unique traits which are really cool and each champion randomly gets one assigned at creation. These should be really influential on the role of the hero, things like improving all units in the army, having a large bonus with a specific weapon, having a chance to stun, knockdown, freeze, etc enemies. Maybe you could throw in some active abilities like a ground stomp that knocks down all adjacent enemies.

Since champions are a big part of the game... make them stand out in memory, not be a container of stats. 

The family heirloom item suggestion like Baldur's Gate 2 is a good idea.
 

Reply #8 Top


I like the vein in which Tasunke is thinking there. Anything along those lines that gives a champion a particular skillset and title goes much better for RP and story.

The pool of traits that UmbralAngel suggested and the heirloom feature that Heavenfall mentioned would go hand in hand, but I don't like the idea of randomisation of them for the champions, as then you do end up looking at your heroes as containers rather than characters.

 

At the moment, when a champion levels up, you choose the stats to increase. Further, they share your sovereign's spell knowledge in accordance with their intelligence. Add to this the fact that they draw on your sovereign's mana reserves, and you see that champions in WoM and FE are truly just indistinct containers.

Sometimes less control is a good thing. In MoM, the abilities and statistic increases per level were pre-determined, and this made certain that each hero had their own particular flavour, and forced the player to choose which ones to keep and which ones to reject depending on the game strategy.

 

For these reasons, rather than suggesting the scrapping or tweaking of all current champion related mechanics, I have come up with a new unit type called Legendaries. A Legendary is a channeler without the ambition to rule a kingdom. They don't need to be imbued, and the ones that use magic have their own substantial mana pools, one for combat which is reset after each battle, and one for overland spells which is reset each turn. Magic using Legendaries specialise in one or two types of magic, and their spells in those schools have considerably higher potency.

A Legendary's statistics and abilities per level are pre-determined. Each has a unique appearance, a uniquely customised mount, and a particular irremovable item which could be a weapon or another item type. All armour and clothing you equip them with takes on the shape of whatever they are wearing, such that their appearance never changes. This distinguishes them from all other units, and makes them memorable.

There should be a finite number of Legendaries, and they cannot be traded. They should be considerably more powerful than any other champion of the same level. Each has a title and a unique set of abilities that they gain as they level up. A good backstory for each Legendary would also be good, but not entirely necessary, as players can fill that blank in their minds.

Prestige should probably be a factor in having a Legendary champion your cause, as well as perhaps faction alignment.

Some Legendaries will have inherent magical ranged attacks, some will be strictly melee, some strictly archers, some might be flying, others water walkers, etc.

You cannot marry a Legendary.

Lastly, customised voices would really help them stand out, and would make playing more immersive.

Reply #9 Top

And it would be nice to have a hero creator that is easy to use and that will allow us to create many custome heros to add to ther map.