Random Maps: Frustration

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from Sins Forums

Hey, everyone. I guess I'll just jump right into it...

Just played a game on Ironclad Online, 1v1 on a small random map. About 30 seconds of scouting and it became clear: I was going to lose. I had many fewer planets that I might colonize than my opponent, who had 11 of the 20 gravity wells under his dominion. My side of the map consisted of significantly less; 6 planets and 2 neutrals in between them, only one of which had any resources, and pirates. Not only was my opponent in a vastly superior position, but it had practically decided the game before it had begun.

Now, I understand that this is the fate of those who play on random maps; unfairness. It used to be that the random maps consisted of one random string of wells repeated near exactly for each player in the game (save exchanging neutrals, and ice planets for volcanic ones.) This looked stupid, so I was glad to see it go. But when I learned that the new, totally random maps were all but always unfair right from the start, it upset me.

It's a base property of this game that it's intended to be fair. That is, it may be realistic for the maps to be totally random, and hence unfair, but then again it's also more realistic for one faction to have an absurd advantage over another, (i.e., the Vasari should perhaps be stronger than the Advent because they've been warring for much longer, they have superior tactics and technology.) But the game's factions are made fair, and that's a good thing. What I want is for the maps, too, to be made fair. When a superior player losses because they had started in an inferior position, there is obviously something wrong.

I'm not asking for a return to the old system, which was pretty much exactingly fair -- all I want is for the random map generators to be made to give reasonably fair, but still highly random maps.

If I've made some crass error or, in my imbecilic rant missed something, please correct me. I'm objective.

Thanks in advance for your help! Hopefully there's a solution already in existence, already underway, or soon to be considered.

18,961 views 7 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

This is an unfortunate issue with the game, and for many of us it's one of the top issues.  It's particularly bad on 1v1 maps, though "map screws" are common in any random game.  They can even happen on preset maps, since militia, resources, and even planet type in some cases are random.

Now, with that said, so long as one player doesn't get too many (or too few) asteroids or neutrals near their start location it's not unrecoverable.  Heck, I once evened out a 1-lane no-asteroid start against an enemy with a 3-asteroid start, which seemed pretty close to hopeless at the start.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

For example, in Age of Empires II (which had the random map system down pretty darn pat), they locked in a stone and gold mine, a berry patch, a wood source, and four sheep all near your town center.  this ensured that each player had enough materials nearby to get a good start.  there were the resources scattered throughout the map in both larger and smaller groups, of course, but there were always some of each near the starting point.

You could lock two or three asteroids and one each of volcanic and ice planets near each occupied homeworld (maybe drop the ice/volcanic in small maps) randomize the locations (but within say 2 jumps of the HW) to keep the need for early game scouting.

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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Thanks for the quick responses, guys.

Darvin3, I didn't know this was a current issue. I understand that a VASTLY superior player can come out on top from a bad situation, and I've done it numerous times, but what I mean is that equally skilled players should be competitive on the random maps.

Orodum, I agree. I love Age of Empires II, I've been playing it since I was 10, and this was never an issue for me. It'd be nice to see something similar in Sins.

On a rather unrelated note, another frustration: ignoring border worlds: In this same game, I managed to place a Star Base (Orkulas, as I was the Vasari in this match,) as well as 5 regeneration bays on a world bordering my opponent's. My Star Base was fully upgraded, with 4 defensive researches and 3 offensive ones, the maximum, and all of this is not to mention my large fleet also in the gravity well. Huge incoming enemy fleet, over 20 Carriers supported by 4 Capital Ships, as well as a formidable mess of Heavy Cruisers and a few support frigates. We clash for about a minute, and the battle's going well, when my opponent decided to move his entire attacking force in towards my undefended core worlds. He totally ignored my wall and jumped straight to my home planet, which, due to extreme resource stress on my part, was quite lacking in fully upgraded Star Bases. That game ended pretty quickly after that. I understand that all factions, the Vasari especially, can inhibit phase jump speed and effectiveness in all sorts of ways, but even the 700% speed decrease, 100% antimatter lost, and 30% hull integrity lost on all of the enemy ships after the jump didn't keep my core worlds alive any longer.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

I understand that all factions, the Vasari especially, can inhibit phase jump speed and effectiveness in all sorts of ways, but even the 700% speed decrease, 100% antimatter lost, and 30% hull integrity lost on all of the enemy ships after the jump didn't keep my core worlds alive any longer.
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Bypassing is a perfectly valid strategy to get past a choke point.  It's a very risky strategy, since it cuts off your own planets from their best defenders and cuts off your fleet from reinforcements, not to mention whatever direct damage you took as punishment for the bypass.  If your fleet isn't strong enough to capitalize on all the difficulties of bypassing, you've probably lost the game.  You can't expect a player to fight like an AI and try to kill your super defensive line when they don't have to.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Duly noted Darvin3... I suppose that's just a problem with my strategy. You realize I'm not all that good at this game ^_^'

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

 

I agree that the random maps could use some improvement.  Perhaps they could be improved, but I'm not sure they could ever be completely fair by virtue of their being random.  One solution to this is to support and promote the playing of custom maps which can be designed to be symmetrical or balanced, or at least better than the random maps.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Duly noted Darvin3... I suppose that's just a problem with my strategy. You realize I'm not all that good at this game
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I'm not speaking about your skill, I'm more saying that this is a valid strategy that his its pros and cons.  It could very well win the game if you didn't have any real way to respond to it.  This is very common when you have a big fat starbase but not much else to your name.  A smart enemy will realize that they only need to ignore the starbase and kill everything else.

One solution to this is to support and promote the playing of custom maps which can be designed to be symmetrical or balanced, or at least better than the random maps.
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While I agree in principle, in practice this hasn't gone anywhere.  Maybe if that 1v1 ladder Amish was talking about takes off we might see some organized use of these maps, but until then we'll have to wait and see.