How I got to number one in metaverse.

from Stardock Forums
This is not a post to brag about how good I am because I'm on number on at the moment. Well, perhaps it is a little bit (woot, woot).

But mainly this post is to point out some design-issues that I used to get to that top. I hope someone, somewhere reads it and does something. Sometime.

1/ Make a seperate ranking for players that play the game without any mods. It's unfair that players like me get in the same ranking as players that play the game 100% unmodded. I mean, they don't have a chance against players that use "easy playing mods" (maintance-free buildings that boost the abilities five times more then normal, cheap but very fast ships, only the planet-quality event,... you get the picture)

2/ Close some cheesy money-loops in the game :
a) Make the AI pay less money for tradegoods
b) Do something about the loophole where you attack, demand money for peace, attack again, demand money for peace again. You can do this ten times in one single turn. With every minor and even major when you have much more military.

3/ Stop the armsdealing-thingy, it's waaaaay too easy : my guess is that you can win this game without researching anything, just buy everything with ships.

4/ Put a minimum length on trade-routes : I usually get half my money from trading with some minor who's planet is only two or three sectors away, sectors filled with money-starbases.

5/ Limit the number of starbases a player can have. It's just too easy to make ten starbases in someone's backyard and watch the his planets run to you.

Some other rants :
- I don't know ANY game where you waste so much resources every turn. Don't make a 218-reply post about it, fix the thing !
- The end-game is mind-boggling boring : mass building constructors is only fun for an hour or three, four, after that it becomes boring (I did it anyway because it's the most efficient option there is).
- Fix the terror-star-fleets-with-excalibur-to-get-17-movement-bug.
- Make some sort of "autosell" screen : I spended countless hours selling utterly useless buildings on planets that joined me. Or even on my own planets once I researched everything !
- Make a fleet worth more then one-ship-attacks-one-other-ship.
- Don't just use the attack-value of a ship to determine it's value, also use all other stats.
- Do something about the CPU-usage of this game. It sometimes takes three minutes for him to make one single turn in a gigantic galaxy on my 2 gigahertz PC.
That are 2.000.000 * 120 * 3 = 720.000.000 calculations it makes. 720 million, I mean, what are you guys doing with those, calculating all prime numbers between a zillion and a trillion ???
- Make the races more customable like MOO2 : forget the governements and give everyone thirty points or something.
2,078 views 86 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
1) You didn't know what it's cosidered a cheating?
Frogboy post "Metaverse data: Cheafers Beware" by the way.
Perhaps it was after discussion about it in Mods forum, perhaps not.

2,3) Just don't use it.

4) I don't care. I have a trade catapult working. Trade route length 140. I builded it for 2 hours of real-time, but i like it! Not so much income, just 1635 from each of 8 freighters, but good enough for me.

5) If you can build 10 starbases, you're already winning anyway, isn't it?

-i also suggested autosell, and because of the same issue :)

~SDC~
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
1) Why would that be cheating using a non-modded one for fairness sake?

2) I would say that the war/extort is in need of fixing. Regardless of use or not, it says something about the AI that it accepts this.
The Political Machine 2024
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Humans make much better use of starbases than the AI, this is a huge advantage too. Actually, while the AI is *good* in this game, it's still pretty disappointing all around. I can't see having a more complex game with better AI unfortunately. Even with this game (which I don't think is all that complex), the AI is probably a very significant challenge. What would happen when every feature everyone has ever wanted is put in? I am just making generalizations, nothing specific against anyone. I can't see people playing this game for that long for these reasons. Already after a few games I am starting to get bored. The combat is too simple, the AI too limited for any real challenge. Hopefully this will get better as time goes on. Anyway I'll still play b/c this is better than anything currently out. And well, then there's MOO3. Need I say more? :)
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
Hey, half those things I didnt even know of.

Most of them I dont even use.

Many of them should be fixed though! :)
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
i know i will never make it anywhere near first place, but they should add a medal for anyone who has made it to first place, even if it was for like only 5 minutes.

~SDC~
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
Fifth,

It might take some time to address all the issues that you're describing. For now, if you don't use cheesy tactics, then the loop holes won't be an issue.
:SURPRISED:

I can understand it would be difficult, knowing that they're out there, and if these really are issues maybe it would be nice to clean them up. However, I wouldn't want all the development resources thrown at these issues that few ever see.
:notsure:

~SDC~
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
"It's unfair that players like me get in the same ranking as players that play the game 100% unmodded."

Your openness is appreciated. I won´t blame you for making use of this shortcut, because I am sure many do so without admitting it.

I always thought that the scoring system is bad, but if it doesn´t even recognize someone is playing with mods that make the game a cakewalk, then it´s really trashy. >:(

Overall, I still like this game, but the scoring system is sticking out like a sore thumb: No Hall of Fame for the player, instead a Metaverse filled up with the bloated results of CheatingForU. :notsure:
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
I don't agree with the "don't use it" reactions.

The whole point of this post is to indicate that something is wrong with Metaverse if a guy using these kind of tactics can make it to the top.

Answering "don't use them" isn't a solution to the problem.

Metaverse is the only way to compare your skills to the skills of others. But if anyone can use these cheesy "tactics", then you can't compare anymore because you don't know if the others played it fair.

So Metaverse in it's current form is useless, it just frustates fair players.

Frogboy can post all he wants, if Metaverse accept the score, it's out there.

And Hairy, thanks for nominating me for a "medal-for-first-place" :-)
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
I'm sorry but we're not going to devote development time to this kind of thing. The amount of time it would take to keep people from wrecking the game for themselves could be spent putting in features and enhancements that 99% of players would enjoy. Our policy is to look at any game that has an unusually high score and load it up (when you submit your score, it also includes most of the data in your game). Generally speaking, mods are okay to use. If they create a drastically altered game state, then we reserve the right to remove those games from the metaverse. This is a strategy game, not progress quest.

~SDC~
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
Re #9: And fair enough too, Frogboy - I'd prefer the precious work time of Stardock employees to go towards making enhancements to the game, not closing cheating loopholes. My God, I didn't even know there WERE 'mods' that made life easier - I guess I'll just get less anxious about who's leading the Metaverse. This is a little like the 'drugs in sport' issue - we know some athletes are taking short cuts, but does that mean everyone else should to keep the playing field 'level' (but highly skewed) by also using drugs? Every computer game I have ever seen ends up with published cheats, cracks, etc. - no amount of programmer time can make it foolproof. Exercises like Staffa's 23,000 game and Fifth's report highlight holes in the system that mean individual players are left to make their own call - I'm just going to play the game as it was MEANT to be played, in a way that is enjoyable to me, and be done with it.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
If the Metaverse is not going to be supported, it
should be scrapped.

Just because no system is fool proof doesnt mean that
there are no good systems. Metaverse is proven to be
flawed with any respect to articulating a difference
between the top players. There is no difference between
an 8000 game and any game higher then that, other then
the desire of the player to get a higher score by building
their pop in a game where all the aliens are very dead.

Such a systemic failure to articulate differences is
unforgivable in a rating system. There is a difference
between making a few fixes that close big holes and
making many fixes that close the endless little holes.

If you are unwilling to fix it, then remove it,
anything less is just asking people to believe in a
lie.
[Message Edited]
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
"If the Metaverse is not going to be supported, it
should be scrapped."

I heartily concur.

A non-existing feature is better than a profoundly bad feature.

And anything that in fact encourages and rewards cheating is profoundly redundant.

Give us a Hall of Fame, so we can at least compare *our own* results, and scrap the Metaverse. :(

"The amount of time it would take to keep people from wrecking the game for themselves could be spent putting in features and enhancements that 99% of players would enjoy."

A bit on the High Horse are we, today? ;p

Who says players wouldn´t enjoy comparing their achievements in a way that isn´t rigged? :notsure:
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
"The amount of time it would take to keep people from wrecking the game for themselves could be spent putting in features and enhancements that 99% of players would enjoy."

Add to this: By this policy of -at best- "not wasting your time on cheaters", you are punishing the non-cheaters. :(
[Message Edited]
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
Frogboy, I agree that time should be spent on features and you're doing great there !

But somehow Metaverse should be fixed. I don't know what kind of resources it takes, but I don't think it can be that difficult to have the game check if it uses a unmodded game or not. Then make two rankings : one for the real version and one for the modded versions.

The way metaverse works now spoils alot and just saying "we're not gonne do anything about" would be a bad thing : I'd like to compare how good I'm doing and the only way to do that is to compare unmodded games, but currently there is no way of doing this.

Anyway, it's your call, I just wanted to make a point. And to be on top of a list for once in my life :-)
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
..This is starting to sound a bit like a Star Trek convention gone bad. If you think the metaverse is bad or broken, you don't have to participate in it. Lots of people enjoy using the metaverse. Myself included. That a handful of people may get to the top using cheese tactics is no different than any other ladder system. You think the top players on other ladder type systems aren't employing some "Cheese"? The metaverse is a LOT more than just a ladder. It's a personal high score system, it's a cool place for people to build an empire together. It's a place where you can go up in ranks (independent of your actual ranking in itself), win medals, etc. And it's a place where we have and continue to update the AI based on strategies employed there. So some people are going to manage to get a few extra points by doing things that coudl be considered "cheesy". So what? How many points do you think Fifth got as a result of his win that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise? We're not talking people getting 100,000 point scores here. And we do look at the games and remove some all the time to keep things reasonably fair to everyone. The metaverse isn't a game in itself. GalCiv is the game. People obsessing over their metaverse ranking is a lot like obsessing over one's seti at home ranking. It's not central to the game. That's why it's rather absurd that we'd even consider putting in significant development time so that literally a couple dozen people out of 50,000 (so far and counting) will be thwarted. It's a no brainer: Do updates that benefit 49,000 people or do updates that benefit 1,000 people (and that's being generous).

~SDC~
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top

I'm reminded of the Willian Shatner get a life Sat night live skit, not that this is the equivalent, but your post just reminded me of it.


Speaking of games, I sent my "anomolous" game to be looked at. I think his name was scott said the score would be restored. This was about a week ago. Was a 5200 point score. Since it probably will be the only time I will ever score that again and it doesn't truly matter, I'd like it back please. Did anyone ever take a look? I hate that big fat zero staring me in the face. Blech. I was usuing stock 1.031 no mods. I got the disappearing resources bug in it but that hurt me, It didn't help me. I still have the game If you want me to send it in again.

Yeah. That Universalist party is so cool he said. That luck bonus they give you really helps he said......... :)







..This is starting to sound a bit like a Star Trek convention gone bad
End of quote


Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
If you think the metaverse is bad or broken, you don't have to participate in it.
End of quote


Absolutely correct. I need only refer you to the Diablo experience of duplicated characters, duplicated items, etc and their ultimate fix seemed to be to simply reset the servers. To me, the Metaverse is an HONOUR system - I'm not impressed with people screwing around, hacking and modding the game and cheesing it then hiding behind the justification: "I did it because I could."

Here's an idea - every three months, at midnight on March 30th, June 30th ,etc, give the top player and empire a gold medal, install their name on a honourboard that would live forever - and then reset everyone to zero. New players aren't faced with topping the huge scores of well established players and top score becomes less a matter of longevity and more a matter of how well you play over a set given time period. Perhaps the only item I agree with is programmers to exclude hacked/modded games - I support Fifth in his comment there.

After all, how many players are on the Metaverse? When I submitted my first small score, I was ranked 1870 - surely there can't be any more than 4000-5000 people using the Metaverse. Less that the average population of a small rural town or village. The user base is hopefully large, but the Metaverse community is, I suspect, actually small in the scheme of things - no wonder Frogboy recoils at spending his resources chasing this stuff down.
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
I don't play GC for the metaverse. I could give a damn less if it existed. Yes, I DO use a cheat political party to play. Yes, so does the computer. :) Will I submit my games to the Metaverse? No. Why? Cause it's not fair to everyone else. Will there be idiots who do? Yes. Every online community has their cheaters/griefers/racists/etc. This is the main reason I play GC because it's single player and I don't have to deal with all the idiots out there.
Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top
I have been on the top of many multiplayer ladder
systems. I think I know the difference between a
good competitive system and one that is not good.

Just because you have never participated in a good
ranking system, doesn't mean they dont, cant exist.

You have your priorities straight and I applaud your
intentions but I have been around the multiplayer
community long enough to know that a flawed ranking
system is like a diseased tree. The first people to
notice it are those on the edge, those that push the
limits. But as more and more people get better, and
believe me, what is good now will be poor tomorrow,
people will get much better in the coming months, and
more and more people will hit the point where the
entire system breaks down. So yes, right now 49,000
out of your 50,000 are unaffected by this.

But in 6 months, it will be the reverse.

I do not cheat, I do not use mods, I dont even restore
from backup saves(except when the game crashes), I use
cntr-N quite a bit but as >I< get better, this
has become increasingly uneccesary. The problems I
face will be faced by anyone who uses the metaverse
eventually, regardless if they are going for the
top spot.

I also play many other GalCiv games with different
settings I just dont report them because they would
lower my score(another major flaw, from any perspective
how many strategies are you missing out on?)

But whatever, you have spent more time articulating
an arguement about why you will not fix the very big
flaws then it would take to actually fix them, so I
will not waste your time anymore. Cause as you said
Metaverse is not the game, its just a ranking system,
it does not posses the complicated code that can be
broken by a seemingly simple change, I have coded
many ranking systems, its not that hard.



Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
For the most part I stay away from threads like this.

I have to jump in though.

So many poeple do nothing but whine about the Metaverse. I think it is fun, but I am not going to lose sleep worrying about how my low score effects my total. As proof I proudly submitted low scores.

Moding the game effects the score, wow like I care.

I support Stardock as I have from the start and I think they have the right priority, fix games bugs such as crashes and add features !!



Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
O, well, obviously this subject is closed. Some people think that comparing yourself with others is a big part of their experience and should be fixed, some people think it's not.

I made my point, my point got noticed, my point got rejected. No big deal.
Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top
Fifth,

While I do not worry too much about my score.
I do thank you for posting. You gave me alot of ideas I may want to try in future games.

Care to let us in on what mods you used ?

Reply #24 from Stardock Forums Top
#9  by Avatar Frogboy - 5/23/2003 9:56:02 PM
" I'm sorry but we're not going to devote development time to this kind of thing. The amount of time it would take to keep people from wrecking the game for themselves could be spent putting in features and enhancements that 99% of players would enjoy."

At the present time you're probably right, but in a few months, many casual players will either start to play more competitively or switch to other games and the community built around Metaverse may become very significant. Good scoring system is maintainng interest in the game for longer time and creates faithful following. Not that I'm saying that you need to drop everything else and jump into changing metaverse :), but I disagree with your estimation of metaverse importance. There are 2 major problems that kind of get mixed together: cheating/abuse and illogical scoring. Fixing 1st is not foolproof and anyway some people will always find ways to circumvent any protection you can put, so in this area something simple and easy to implement would do. Second problem is worse, because perferctly fair players can not compare their skills even on honour based system. Considering that it's single player game the lack of this ability seriously hinders competitive aspects. For example, currently, comparing 3 masochistic games on gigantic (15K,8K and 5K score) you can not make any conclusion about the relative skills of the players. Basically, 5K game could have been finished with 15K if one wanted to milk the score.

I understand that you have limited resources that can be better spent in other areas, so maybe you'll consider letting community to do the ranking?
Reply #25 from Stardock Forums Top
Metaverse was good at the begining...but, nowadays, i don't bother updating my scores to the metaverse.

I simply just note down my score, the time it took me to complete, the level i was playing at and the size of the galaxy...after that, i restart and try and beat my personal score.

Personally, i think its much more fun...but than again, thats me :)