The learning curve, in my opinion, is *punishing* =(

Are you serious? I've been contemplating making a post to the opposite. I was decimating hard(1.03) AI on just my second game... If the learning curve is steep it's countered by the fact that the AI is as confused as you are.

I'm very serious. Sorry, but I just don't have a damned clue of what's going on about 90% of the time. Guess I'm just dumb.  :NOTSURE: 

To learn the game I launched a few medium size maps with one AI easy in my team and another in the ennemy team (2vs1), I locked teams and deactivated pirates.
That way, I lived long enough to learn the game and studied the AI behaviour on my ally at the same time.
After a few games I noticed I was better than the AI and ready to go on my own

Maybe this isn't the game for you?
My first game EVER, i went against AI, on hard, when Unfair didn't exist, and wrecked them.

I'll give you a couple pointers.

1. Play Tec
2. When the game starts, first thing you do is build a cap ship facility
3. Build your cap of choice (I recommend Akkan, it has a colonize ability)
4. Start building cobalt light frigates until u hit your fleet capacity while capturing the nearest asteroid.
5. Research Civilian Infrastructure on the nearest asteroid as soon as you have it.

Okay this is when you can get experimental.
I would recommend building 2 military facilities so you can research Javalis LRM frigates, and start building those. Then go from there. Kodiak Heavy Cruisers are the staple of any mid game fleet.

But, in all honesty, if you cannot grasp the basic concepts of this game after 2-3 minutes, maybe this game isn't for you.
In 45 minutes you should have at least 30 frigates and a capital ship or 2, as long as a couple planet. Even in your first or second game.

Also, as the person above me mentioned, watching is a great great way to learn. Make a 2v2 with locked teams maybe and watch them fight each other. Or another crazy idea, I could send you a replay of human players.
Also, if you can find someone online with the patience to show you around, meet up with him on Ironclad online.
Although the best way by far to learn is to be in the same room with a person who knows how to play. That's how i taught my friend, and he got pretty good really quick.

In multiplayer, it's usually a good idea to stick with one capital ship (scuttling the cap ship facilty after the first cap comes out) in the arms race.

And it is an arms race. Like starcraft, if your enemy scouts and sees no units home, they're gonna come and take out your infrastructure; research labs are fairly high priority targets that will set back a player significantly if they're lost early on.

So if that happens, you can either defend and repel him, or counter-attack:CONGRAT:.

Both options require you to have some sort of fleet; static defenses aren't easy/effective for a new player to use in multi.

Another key aspect for multiplayer is to communicate with your teammates! Unfortunately, Sins has only been out for just over a month, so >70% of players haven't tried getting good yet. So be skeptical about the advice you get from allies... especially if it's along the lines of "build this bad subpar cap! (akkan, skirantra, antorak, halcyon, etc)"

On an average 2v2 or 3v3 on a medium 30-50 planet map, the best choice for TEC is either Kol or Marza in 90% of those games. Vasari starts with Kortul 90% of the time too, etc.

Playing against computers gets repetitive after a while, winning against people is more satisfying... at least for me it is:HOT:.

I agree with you. This is my first of this type of game. Most of the people on the forum I would say are old times at this type of game. There should have been some sort of small may walkthrough scenario. I also find the pace of game play fast. The game play example in the forum does not provide anything for the newbie.

I found looking at Huntingtonx's build lists were a good start. I play a game loose redo the tutorials and pick up a few hints and play again. It is gradually coming together. I always expand too fast and can then not work out to upgrade my planets.

If I do not expand fast the AI will and take them before me. I just can not work out how they get such a bigger fleet than me in the same time. always at least double.

I have heard that there is a trainer that works very well if you want to cheat. But I only ever saw a demo download somewhere.

Every game I get better. From reading some of the posts some people claim that they win every game. I would find that very boring. To me if I can win 50% of games I think it is great.

Keep at it, patience will pay off, and redo the tutorials every so often as you do pick up other hints and they do not take long after a few times.


Cheers MarkL

Or just a little overwhelmed... There's alot to look at and keep track of, and it can seem a bit over the top.

In addition to reply #4, which has some helpful bits:

1- I never build scout ships, not until later when I'm searching out enemy fleets. Maybe it's just me, but there's not enough resistance early game in the planets next to you to warrant it's use, and as you will see later down the line, your other ships will handle anything they find just fine.

2- Play TEC. I say it again because it's the race most like yourself, so the decisions will make sense and you don't have to consult the "book" to find out what you're doing.

3- I build, in this order: Cap Ship Facility, Resource Excavators, Civilian Lab. I build the KOL CapShip and then 3 or 4 Cobalts, then the "colony" frigate. I send the Kol and the cannon fodder to the nearest planet and take out the rabble. I then send the colony ship just as the last is being cleared. I can then send the "fleet" onto the next planet and clear the rabble, then send the colony in to that one. Wash, Rinse and Repeat. Build more Cobalts to replace the damaged ones, and a few extras to help keep the advance moving along. Depending on the map, you can carve a nice niche for yourself rather quickly.

4- Turn off the pirates. They are annoying at first, and always come at a time you need to be doing something else. Later, you will realize that they are great for leveling up your Cap Ships. By then you'll have a handle on research and building and defending yourself to combat them.

5- On the first planet settled, I build a 2nd Civilian Research Unit, that way I can research Volcanic and Ice World colonization. I can also research Trade. On the 3rd planet, I build a military research unit. By then, trade is done (usually...). I go back and build trade ports for all planets, upgrading the slots as necessary to do so.

6- During all of that, my first priority is getting my CS and Fleet numbers to the next level, then getting the 2nd military research up so I can tech LRMs and the missle techs. I want a 2nd Cap Ship, a Dunov. I pair this with my KOL. The two in tandem are deadly fun. The Dunov has shield support that helps out the KOL and the Cobalts, which along with LRM's makes a nice early fleet.

7- While you're not busy doing all of that , I upgrade my planets. There are only two upgrades that I worry about until later in the game. The pop increase (upper left) and the explore planet, 3rd on top IIRC. I max those ASAP. If you hover your mouse over the dollar figure upper right, you get a breakdown of where your money is, or isn't. Do it every few minutes. You'll notice planets will cost you money until you develop them. Artifacts and bonuses are pretty self explanatory... you just want them as soon as you can get them.

8- Beware of spam. It's easy to spam ship and building types to win. I don't, forcing me to be better in the strategy department. Be aware that the AI may spam certain units later on, forcing you to match, but the "mighty LRM" usually takes care of that. I also limit myself to 1 trade port per planet. It's too easy to spam these and make too much money. If all you want to do is "win" spam away. If you want to actually "play", don't.

9- The market is your friend. Buy and sell what you need to. Don't worry about minor fluctuations of 10 or 20 credits, the time is more valuable. As long as you don't buy during spikes or sell during drops to the floor you'll be OK. This will be especially true with 1.04 where the market has been beefed a little on the sell side.

10- The K.I.S.S. principle: Keep It Simple Stupid. (not to infer you are, it's just how the saying goes...) Don't go off on tangents until you have the basics down. Start on a SMALL map with one opponent. Turn off the pirates. Make the AI run "easy". Get a feel for the interface. Push buttons, click on things... Especially all those little things on the left of the screen. Learn a few keyboard shortcuts for screen focus. Click on a planet and hit the space bar, then the caps lock.

Lastly, have fun. Don't worry about being overwhelmed... do what you can and learn what to do... THEN go out and kick butt.

There is some good information here, but I will add two things:

1. If you already know something about RTS games, you can begin by choosing a smallish galaxy and doing 1v1 vs. an easy AI. This will be enough to have an idea of how to use the interface and give you enough time to decide what to build. If you don't have experience with RTS games, going for a larger map will buy even more time.

2. Use the pause button on your keyboard any time you feel overwhelmed. In a single player game you can use it any time you want. The benefit is when paused, you are free to look around the map, drill through the interface options, and hover your mouse over anything to see what it does. This is invaluable for new players.

A note to those who say things like, "If you haven't grasped this in a few minutes, maybe it isn't the game for you": not everyone is like you. Fact is, Sins is more popular than expected, and chances are a lot of people who have never played an RTS or TBS game are trying Sins for the first time. If this is true, then yes, it is NOT good at teaching new players. The tutorial is disjointed, plus there's no campaign to slowly introduce new ideas and suggest what one should do.

But to the new people: hang in there and don't be so worried that you're being too slow or not doing quite the right thing. Just hang in there, keep building things and exploring, and ask in the forums when you're not sure how to do something. Don't worry if you feel the game isn't going well. The first few games I played I simply restarted after an hour or even two, once I realized I could do something better. Treat your first few games as messing around sessions, not games that need to be won (or even completed).

-HM

Play the first few games with an ally ai protecting your ass.

I agree with the original poster. I've been a computer game fanatic since the 1960s (yes, that's right), but I prefer turn-based games. I loved Dune 2, the first RTS game, and I haven't liked any of the other RTS games, even Warcraft. So I haven't played a RTS game in years. And so I had a HARD time getting used to Sins.

I find I tend to play at 6x or 4x speed, but frequently hitting Pause when things happen. The turn-based player in me just simply has to know what's going on everywhere. If you concentrate entirely on one battle, viewing the fine graphics, and let the clock keep running, you can easily find out that another enemy fleet smoked your homeworld.

So I agree with lots of the posts here. Start off on a random small 1 vs 1 map with an easy AI, play slowly, and observe.

I also highly recommend making 1 military lab and 1 civilian lab at your home planet very early and researching all the level 1 techs, especially Hanger Defense.

As quickly as I can, I upgrade all my planets' tactical slots. On a terran or desert world where you get 35 tactical slots, my standard tactic is now to build EIGHT hangers surrounding one repair bay, and you have room for one Gauss cannon too. That gives you 16 strike wings--divide them up as 10 fighters and 6 bombers. Defenses like that will hold off the AI for a long time. It's very important that your main fleet be out attacking and taking new ground all the time.

Start with 1 or 2 easy AI on a small map. Dont build anything, but go through every menu and button and click each to see what it does. Mouse over each research tech to see what those do. There are researches for economy, thats always a good start. Mouse through the ship building options. They are each fundamentally different so its difficult to be confused as to which ship to build. Build a few and try them out on different things. You dont need to worry about "winning" the first few games.

Like any strategy game, just go through the UI and figure out what most things do. Also figure out what the "main" functions are like research ship building, and colony expansion. Dont worry about the black market or pirates (yet). Just get familiar with the basics in a real game (dont bother with the tutorial, trial by fire is a much better way to learn). Remember, YOU ARE GONNA BE A PRO FIRST FEW GAMES!

Thats the same for any new strategy game. You have to learn the basic UI before you can use the strategy.

Play with friends or people willing to help you online. They can guide you through, step by step how to get up and running. Or watch replays posted across these forums to see what others do. But mostly, dont be afraid to experiment. You are going to break the game by pressing the buttons in the UI. The worst you can do is "scuttle/raze" your frigate factory (raises hand - never heard the term scuttle before).

Anyway, just hang in there. The UI has about a 2-3 game learning curve. The rest of the game is simplistic and extremely fun. And remember, there is no really wrong way to play (unless you are scuttling everything), so just build what you feel comfortable building and tech what you feel comfortable teching. Do what seems logical to you, whether it be building a few frigates (having read through their descriptions of course) or building a tech center or two to get tier 1 and 2 researches going. Just take your time and have fun.

On easy, enemies are easily fended off with a few ships. Battles also last ALOT longer then most other RTS games so you have time to do different strategies to see what works and what doesnt. It can take a few minutes (in real time) to destroy a capital ship, so use that. And if it blows up, so what. Build a new one and try again.

Anyway, good luck.

This is a very helpful and encouraging thread, but I have my doubts.

I'm learning very slowly and also thinking this may not be the game for me, though I've done other RTS's. I'm more interested in exploration of a large map, not combat.

What bothers me is that the reviews said it was a slow-paced game, and I see empires
being bullt in ten minutes. The ships and researches take only seconds on the slowest setings
--it's a click-fest. The advice here says build a cap ship right away--doesn't make sense
to me that as you barely start you have the most powerful ship at the beginning?

I tried to make an empty map, many suns and few opponents, so I could get the feel of it,
but I notice on every map every planet is already infested with opponents. Are these
pirates? There's a button to disable pirates? As it is I have to clean out the planets
before I can even start. On the map builder I did not notice at first that number of
opponents applies to each star system; they expect each star system to be a battlefield.
For my money I'd like more stars and fewer enemies, a slow-built empire. A cap ship is
a major project, should take hours to build.

No, they're not pirates. They're "minor races", which are around just to give you a bit of fun before easily taking over a (more or less) empty planet/asteroid.

The capital ships don't take hours to build, but each race does have unique, powerful elements on the technology tree that take time to reach.

-HM

These ships guarding planets are neither pirates nor other players, they are just a squad of ships preventing you from colonizing it until you kill them, for whatever reason.

Actually, once I did a bit of messing around and took my time, I got the picture and one my 1st game...against an easy AI of course lol.

I can appreciate now the incredible design effort that went into the interface in this game. It's so much easier than your reguler RTS; I can now queue up structures and ships all from the same part of the interface; click on planet; build; enjoy!

The only thing lacking, in my opinion, was a foldout card with the technology trees printed for each race. yes it is in the game, but sometimes it helps reading these things before you get started.

Look forward now to improving and getting into some games online! Thanks for your help all!

You only have one though, and it makes sense to me that a small civilization would at least have one powerful warship. But if you look at your fleet supply, you'll see there's a heavy cost to that capital ship, and you won't be building a whole bunch of them right away. And I find it's a fun and challenging balancing act to determine whether to spend my resources on planetary upgrades, research, ship upgrades, increased fleet capacity, etc.

It seems to go fast to me because I'm having a ton of fun, but when I look up at the clock after building up my empire only a little bit and realize a couple hours have passed, then it becomes obvious to me that it's not all that fast in reality (although I admit I use the pause button quite a bit, as I'm still just learning the ins and outs of the game).



As noted, they're just minor players in the galactic scheme of things. Good practice for your fleet.



Yes. It's handy at for the first couple games so you don't have to worry about the added factor of trying to keep them off your butt. After that though, they add a nice bit of spice to the game (good for levelling your cap ships and it adds another tactical factor in your game).



While I can see what you're saying, I don't think that would be a good idea, as many games don't last hours and hours (from what I've read). If it takes that long to build a cap ship, then you'd a have a lot of dissatisfied players. People just wouldn't like playing game after game and not being able to get their most powerful ships launched.

I'm no modder (yet), but perhaps it's possible to mod the time required to build the cap ships if you really want to adjust it.

For the struggling starting player, this is the best advice.

Except I'd say "frequently and see what you're doing." rather than just when you're feeling overwhelmed. Look at your resources - are you completely overloaded on one type that you can sell on the black market? How's your fleet supply? Do some of your planets need more defenses?

-- Retro

It's not the first time this kind of post shows up. The game should offer an option, similar as the one mentioned, for novice players. Starting players usually don't know how to do that themselves in the first place.

A pre-arranged map for novice players would go a long way to make one understand the complexities of sins. It sure beats reading a manual, go through the forums, pulling hair, kick one's beloved pet, or get a divorce because of it.

It would be a nice starting point to the game...

Usually (not always) that function is provided by the campaign. Firs tfew maps are an easy slide into introductory gameplay.

The tutorials were okay, but didn't give an overriding introduction to how the economy really works most effectively, which is crucial to get at least approximately right at the game's start.

-- Retro

Seems you need a different strategy. Take your time with this game, no need to rush. For instance I like to take over one planet at a time. Go in and destroy whatever resistance is there, colonize and set up the infrastructure and defenses. While I'am doing this my fleet or part of of it stays and protects the new territory until it can defend itself and then i move on. Works very well for me, don't recommend for multiplayer though.

Are they complete PC gaming noobs? This, and playing in an empty LAN server, is how you learn EVERY game. I guess he could be new to gaming, but seriously, this is pretty common-sense stuff, you have to assume a level of familiarity...

Building that first free capital ship is key to survival. They should make sure every player knows that before their first game.

I agree about it not being a slow-paced game. There are mods that slow it down.

To all those that think this game is easy, its not at a first. Last time I sat down and played it for my first time. I was completely owned. Today I sat down again and was able to do far better. Its not that easy of a game to pick up. esp if your not a regular to RTS such as myself. Sure I got expreience with games like starcraft, and RTW however i'm hardly a expert.

One simple way to fix this is for the Tutorials to improve to include more strategy and tactics. They explain how to use the UI to do stuff, but not really why you need to do certain things.

The game model is fairly complicated for RTS noobs. This is great for hardcore gamers or people with infinite time to learn it all the hard way, but is bad for the beginners.

And most [with this forum the exception] of the online help is spread sheets which smells a lot like work and less like fun - unless you are a wargaming grognard. You know who you are...

Perhaps a mini-campaign where are you asked to do things like you would in a normal game, and explain why: Advent is good at culture, so lets get it fast and build a communion... etc.

1. build a CS and N frigates. take over and capture asteroid/planet
2. research culture/trade and build one in each. watch credits go up. watch culture spread.
3. improve asteroid/planet to increase pop, build more logistics/tactics. build more research buildings.
4. increase fleet size
5. take over another planet
6. increase number of commanders
7. build another CS
8. etc...

That would require a lot of resources/time from IC/Stardock that are better reserved for other more important things.