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Multiplayer Concerns

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Multiplayer Concerns

from Sins Forums
Okay. So I know all this "port" stuff and technical issues have answers (besides buying a 30 dollar program just to host a game) but basically everyone on multiplayer who I talk to has some multiplayer problem.  I havn't had this many problems with firewalls with ANY other strategy game EVER, so don't use that as an excuse.  You guyz really need to fix the multiplayer, make it easier to host games, and maybe even organize a 24/7 server.  When I go to multiplayer I see about 300 players online, and about 4 games, 3 of which usually require a password. 
 
And from what I read in the forums, I am not the only frustrated one.

Pleeeeeez tell me that you guyz will at least fix some of the multiplayer issues


thanx
multiplayer
42,414 views 66 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top
I'm still hoping Ironclad and Stardock will get a system that will allow us people who CANNOT (as opposed to will not be bothered to) change their networks.
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Thats basically not possible. You do know that, right?
Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top
I've helped some of my more "mature" friends (one 60, one 71) learn how to use computers. The 71 year old, heck, I actually even had to teach him how to use a mouse, so if I brought up router stuff to him, I think he'd blow a gaskit. The 60 year old now plays WoW, and Sins is his first RTS/4x game. I could never think of putting either of them down just because they "don't know" how to do more than use the keyboard/mouse, ect, but they, and my neice (14) sure as heck have no idea what a router even is, let alone how to get into it and change settings (even with the great help of people like Monk).

So although both Neice and my older friend's eyes bugged out when they tried Sins over here, they have both made it clear that unless I personally fix what they call "that router do-hickey", that there is no way they are getting the game. And I don't think they are lazy or stupid, they just don't want to learn, what is to them, pretty complex stuff to play Sins, when they already have games they just have to hit the "Play online" button.

So, I just settle for Lan game over with them now and then, but it sure would be nice if they could just buy the game, and play it with me from their homes.
Curtains - Customize Windows with additional styles
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top
TRY DOWNLOADING HAMACHI IF U CANT HOST AND POST UR SERVER NAME AND THE PASSWORD FOR IT ON THE FORUM SO PEOPLE CAN JOIN IT :HOT:
Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top
and here's the link to hamchi i forgot to put in just now :(
Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top
oh....crap....this link doesn't work like that......

soooo.... just use this wikipedia link and get the link i used at the bottom of the page:)
Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top
Some people simply can't enable port forwarding. No root access on the router using wireless from university / internet-cafe / whatever with their notebook for example.

A toggable tunnel option would be nice.

And following up on all these "PC games are dead" podcast thingies:
I put in a console game and it simply works out of the box. No hassle.
If I install a PC game I expect the same level of comfort and Sins is able to provide that, great work SD and IC (except in hosting).
If I as player have to read a 10page howto just to host games then there is something seriously wrong.

For me personally it's not a problem since I'm quite good on the technical side and I configured quite a few ports in the past but I can understand less technical interested players to be not happy with the way hosting works. And I think they are the majority here (and since it's not balance related the majority is quite important ;) ).
Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top

@ Megavolt

It has been stated several times on these forums now, that patch 1.1 will give us "optional" tunneling netcode for SINS. I guess 10-page guides aren't the only thing you don't like to read?   ;p  *tongue in cheek*


the Monk
Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top
Its easy to host, all you have to do is forward your IP correctly. The other steps are all extra as far as I can tell.

Right. I'm a network engineer and even I admit that this is foolish for the devs to try and have users do.

The game should add itself to the windows firewall per the users request and that should be the end of it. All this port forwarding is not necessary and only causes problems.

I play plenty of games (all of them in fact) that don't require me to do this and somehow my system stays safe so this needs to go. The online portion of this game should not require any special configurations on your system besides asking to add the game to the firewall.

The port forwarding BS needs to go away. Either turn it off or have the game configure it for the user.
Reply #59 from Sins Forums Top
I think p2p was a way for the devs to save money.

They dont have to provide servers to host games.


Reply #60 from Sins Forums Top
*sigh* why I bother replying to the same bloody posts time and again I'll never know....  :( 


Tumbler,

to quote myself from another thread...
"People have no problems with having to teach themselves how to use facebook, torrent anything and everything, rip&burn movies, texting while driving/in-school etc. Some of which require more steps to learn (and for which I myself would need a tutorial..hehe) than forwarding a couple of ports. I have no sympathy if those same people complain about having to learn how to configure a router."

I have given people the WHAT and the HOW ("Neworking and SINS") guide. If they're having problems with the HOW (I have no problems holding their hand :) ) I'll be glad to help, but those complaining about having to do/learn anything in the first place? Well, those people can............ hehe



Trackiet,

to again quote myself from another thread...
"Think of the massive number unit/econ etc. updates that would need to flow to/from each client to the host and back if SINS had been made client-server. Now try to imagine how much network bandwidth that would consume for only one 10-player game."

I'm sure "saving money" had nothing to do with SINS being P2P.


@ Both of you!

Seems like neither of you read my reply (post# 57) to Megavolt, so I'll quote it here as well...

"It has been stated several times on these forums now, that patch 1.1 will give us "optional" tunneling netcode for SINS..."

That means, there should no longer be a need to port-forward etc. once 1.1 arrives.


-monk out!


Reply #61 from Sins Forums Top

I really hate people who quote and dissect a massive post.







Holy Firestorm, that was not my intent. My point was this:MOST of the requests for help (both polite and rude) usually gets on reply linking Monk's Tutorial, and before the person can respond 2-4+ replies from people with no intention of helping BLASTING the person asking for help (some of the people who ask for help DONT deserve it and act like Trolls and i acknowlage that). Usually in borderline language/tone. Any perseaved "attack" was not on the people who post the link to Monk's Tutorial (or Monk himself, i thought i made sure to praise him for his help in my previous post - Quite frankly i dont understand why he does spend as much time helping, He does more than ANYONE here (paid or not), both in troubleshooting and in covering as many threads (people) as possible) My Issue was with the people who are the 2-4+ replies who act like they are helping just to Bash you and take out there own issues on you. The "younger" generation you speak of have no problems editing facebook pages, burning/ripping music, posting youtube videos, using photoshop, texting (while driving or in school), torrenting anything & everything (some of these things I myself would need to read a tutorial for in order to do them). Why don't they have problems doing any of the above? Because if a person wants to know how to do something badly enough, they'll learn.GENERALLY true, however its preatty close to a Stereotype. I acknowlage tho people who want to play an Online RTS are the ones that should/could know. The real cause for this issue is the prevailance of "plug and play" technolgy that dosent work and just creates the illusion that is all you have to do to get the perifial to work (printers, wireless keyboards, ROUTERS) people buy a router and they are TOLD by "professionals" that it will work just like that. But it dosent. They are not "idiots who have no right to be online" they just dont know for themselves and trust what they where told. They are not stupid just misinformed. Gullable at worce.There is quite a large difference between complaining about not having the correct information in order to get something working, or complaining about have to do anything at all.I agree and agreed before my original post. However i do think the issues are "alittle ahead of the curve" compared to the current norm of idiot friendly online games for the past 1-2 years where you could play battle.net using a can and string as an ISP.I have (and continue to do so) made myself available to help this community in any way I can which has included forum posts, guides, time spent on my TS Server talking people through my instructions, and the only time I ever expect someone to feel like an idiot is when they haven't even bothered to read all of the information (my guide "Networking and SINS" is easy to read/follow and has everything needed in order to get things working) provided to them.And for this i can only thank you, it was your tutorial that allowed me to host my first game last night. But i could definatly see some people needing to be walked through it, 2-5 years of the computer industry purposfully trying to get PCs into the hands of people that dont want/need them, combined with the "plug and play" mentality and STUPID sales reps has well... created a community of people that think they know more than they do (most of us).Even the young among us don't have the right to refuse to help themselves (download guides and read them) and then complain about not being helped!No, but they are the ones to be forgiven for being immature or inexperianced.If you have Norton or Mcaffee, you deserve everything bad that happens to you, its almost that simple.Good for you! that was constructive, now the irony... McAfee at full settings does not interfere with SINS on MY computer. However it should. personally "if you DONT use norton or mcaffee (or other legit program) you deserve everything bad that happends to it, its almost... wait it IS that simple."I seriously doubt the game is marketed to 12-13 year olds.?GAME is marketed to 12 and 13 year olds AND 24-45 year olds.but remember atleast 50% of the players probebly ARE under the age of 18.I didnt say it was, my point is they are an intended part of this community.And with any broadband contract, you automatically get a router nowadays - mostly with WLAN and whatnot. The problem is that OS like windows have so completely hidden even the most basic functions that people don't even bother to read the instruction manuals for their routers. I can't explain it in any way else that I have in my current location, access to at least three unsecured WLANs, one of them with the default manufacturer SID.This is what i ment earlyer, with the industry focused on doing this for years... can we really blame the consumer anymore?I didnt mean to attack anyone and at the very least Monk. I just wanted to make the point to all the people that help and "help" that please be more accepting and less insulting. Every help thread i read is over 60% bashing. And to those of you who are frustrated, dont DONT take it out on the person helping you, and saying "the game is crap" dosent help. Its ok to think the game is "lacking" or "not perfect", but if you feel the game is garbage and you lost $40 dont come here, just click uninstall and go torrent something.So again I apologise if anyone felt they were "attacked" unfairly. PS - (Cuz i know Monk was waiting for it) Monk, I have seen you use the analogy "Did you get a car and not learn how to use it?" or something along those lines relating knowing how to operate a car to, using a computer. so i ask "So you have a car that you use regularly, do you know how to fix or modify it???" Just as not everyone knows how to fix or modify the car they use, not everyone knows how to fix or modify the computer they use. I am not trying to start an arguement (maybe an intellectual debate) i just like analogies...
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Reply #62 from Sins Forums Top
Problem is every router while being similiar can have their own unique problems. I have owned many routers now and like people have said it takes a bit of reading sometimes. I am not having any problems but recently I bought a linksys router and it kept disconnecting, sometimes regular , sometimes not so regular but random, I upgraded the firmware..........same problem. a month or so had went by and eventually I found a firmware that wasnt mentioned on the linksys site, seemed dodgy but I applied it an now have no DC issues at all. Thats the first time Ive had any problem like that but just goes to show some probems are stubborn :)

Monk not wanting to go offtopic but does your faq cover why nat traversal makes other peoples PCs insecure? Im just curious , Im a coder but not a networking guru and frankly my networking is a bit rusty now at best. Im just interested to know about NAT since I have needed to use NAT routers on my home network , the reason being so I can host or join network games while other network users for example use MSN via mics and webcam and speak to their friends, I have always managed to get things working but like to know a bit about what Im opting for from time to time :)

I hope you all get your problems sorted, I have spent much time reading to get all my past issues sorted in a plethora of games and apps

One thing I cant understand though is why people opt for peer to peer , thats what sins uses is it not? client server seems a much better system to me but like I said I aint no guru :) but other games I have played p2p have really been limited because of this way of doing it and hardly anyone plays because people cant in general get a stable connection much of the time.(Also have noticed with p2p problems seem to be most prevelant with anything more than 2 or 3 players) Whether thats down to user fault is kind of here or there if its going to kill MP, so Im hoping the more MP I play it stays stable and if it does have problems please fix. (From my own observation with more or less every genre with my massive collection of games client server , seems to me by far to be a much more stable system and has less problems than p2P )

I play plenty of games (all of them in fact) that don't require me to do this and somehow my system stays safe so this needs to go. The online portion of this game should not require any special configurations on your system besides asking to add the game to the firewall.
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Tumbler appreciate the admissions from someone like yourself :) I happen to agree with you about autoconfiguration of ports and stuff and your other points. I am always on my PC and am comfortable with port forwarding and such things but the fact is many arent so if hundreds are mis-configuring their routers that effects many many more(Realise sims has other issues Im just saying as example) so Im also for the whole ease of use thing as well even though Im capable enough to get things working. Good post!
Reply #63 from Sins Forums Top

redwingdw28,

I'll try to remain concise in my reply to your questions. :)


To address your question with regard to NAT-T making systems vulnerable. In a (very small) nutshell, NAT traversal means that packets are "wrapped" in another layer so that they can "tunnel" through a NAT device. Examples of this are L2TP VPN connections. If your router for example is running a SPI (and many will know by now what I think of the "SPI" on crappy little SOHO routers..hehe) the NAT-T traffic will tunnel right past the router and the SPI (which is tasked with "inspecting" all traffic to verify that it in fact is what it says it is) will not be able to "inspect" / verfiy the validity of the traffic. In my world there are only a few cases/reasons why I would allow NAT-T traffic into my networks, and then only along with a decent PKI setup. Microsoft patched the default NAT-T behaviour from open to closed in Windows XP to err on the side of caution. :)


I've also discussed NAT-filtering and the possibility to independently "relax" it on some network devices. NAT-endpoint filtering is essentially what describes how "seriously" your router (NAT device) takes it's job. The nomenclature I used to describe NAT-filering in my guides was taken directly from a SOHO router by D-Link. See links below.

Description:
WWW Link

How that router allows configuration of NAT-endpoint filtering:
WWW Link

Other router's may not call it NAT-endpoint filtering or even have options to control it like that particular router does, I've simply tried to explain it in my guides in simple terms and how it can/will affect gaming connections.


To address your final question about P2P versus client-server.
SINS (the entire game simulation) is being run on each players computer, the "host" (more host in name only) is just there to "sync" everyone together. Imagine the amount of bandwidth that would be required to handle for example only the ECON updates for a single 10-player game, especially in a late-game (pervasive econ, trade-port spam, etc.) Now add a couple hundred ships per person, and oh....let's not forget the casting of abilities......

Anyway, I tried to keep my reply short.... :D 


the Monk
Reply #64 from Sins Forums Top
Wouldn't it be so much simpler to tell people to put their PC IPs under DMZ?

That's what I do. I swear if i have to hear anything more about the net being "unsafe," I'm going to give up on people ever getting over scare tactics that the media uses.

THERE IS NO REASON TO BE AFRAID OF BEING HACKED IF YOU PUT YOUR IP UNDER DMZ, UNLESS YOU ARE TARGETTED.
Reply #65 from Sins Forums Top
Thanks Monk :) Yeah appreciate the reply, and the fact you just took it as curiosity.(I like to learn about computing/networking related stuff :) ) Im going to be getting into networking in quite a big way at uni , seems like it is going to be difficult but very interesting. I actually think I understand the point you are making though. For all the speel about NAT its not often you hear of people mentioning about packet inspection.

Noted regarding P2P, never thought of it that way :) , checking out the links provided

Thanks and keep up the good work!
Appreciated

redwingdw28

edit: On below post I mention about DMZ , I do see what you mean about everyone saying its insecure :) I use it for convienance, sometimes but mainly to test net connectivity to servers prior to port forwarding but I wouldnt recommend it
Reply #66 from Sins Forums Top
Wouldn't it be so much simpler to tell people to put their PC IPs under DMZ?
End of quote


I use DMZ sometimes but it is in-secure and I think with people using port scanners etc if you have everything open for a length of time you will get targetted at some point. Doesnt even mean you could be targetted in a way thats making your PC have problems , perhaps just information stealing and that is a big problem.

Sorry about double post .....no edit button :(