Sharky's Day - Make Money Fast (spoiler)

from Stardock Forums
We here at the Excessively Abusive Terran Meta-Economic department were sitting around watching our mighty republic get outproduced by even minor empires, when we asked ourselves the question "Hey, let's try to abuse the trading system". In the spirit of "if it's worth analyzing, it's worth analyzing to death", we tried a few deals, then even shaped an empire to test further. The results were quite encouraging - now, when we look and see a minor empire with 10k credits sitting around, we don't gnash our teeth, we think "Yum! Mine!". How? Galactic Loansharking!

This is with all empires set to "sub-normal". I'm sure it gets harder as they get smarter. Basically, I took a few points of diplomacy, speed (didn't seem to work, but hey), and research. Galaxy was medium, sparse, good planets "uncommon" (I didn't want to fool with developing a lot of planets). Opening: set taxes to keep morale at 55% or so. Set spending to 100%. Research 100% and race to Universal Translator, Diplomacy and Trade. Don't bother building much else - you'll be able to buy it all soon.

On the first turns, purchase 3 or so survey ships, and set out to find everybody else, especially the minor races. Purchase the Dioplomatic Translator for another +30% Diplo. If you have to, trade some non-diplo tech for money - go for the most cash you can get over about 10-12 months, this seems to be the "sweet spot". Now, the real fun can begin - Making Money Fast. The theory: offer repayment over 99 months for a loan with cash delivered over 12 months. With this high diplo bonus, sweeeeeet deals can be made.

Example: Trade with minor Alex, their opinion of us just a bit over "Neutral" (as they like you more, deals get better)
Basic offer: I offer to pay 10 for 99 months
They will accept giving: 482/0 362/1 290/2 241/3 207/4 181/5 161/6 yadda yadda 96/12

So OK, check the 6 month deal - that's 161*7 = 112% payback, not even considering the "time value of money"
12 months is 96*13 = 125% - cha-ching!

I even got them to pay 50/99 for my 25/99! This was not always repeatable though, and was probably a glitch.
The numbers will sometimes go down as the amounts increase - you can't just sling around 1000/99 and get the same deal. 200/99 seemed OK though :) So, I just did a few 200/99 with each minor each turn for 1900/12 or so. Now, even after the hideously high finance payments on all the stuff I bought (and I went on a major spending spree, let me tell you), I have a 15-20k postive cash flow/month. I've only been doing it for 50 turns or so, so there *may* be some pitfall coming up. The main danger is this is addictive, and if you spend too much, you *will* need to keep refinancing. The danger is your suckers, uh, I mean partners, could get conquered or refuse to trade or something. You *could* be cautious, and only spend the 25% pure profit, saving the rest for repayments. Also, switching to the leases with the shorter repayment terms and keeping 80 months of payments banked could be prudent too.

One nice feature - they have no incentive to declare war, as they see you as owing them a *ton* of money. I even made less than favorable loan deals with the Drengin and Yor, just so they'd think twice about losing that income stream :)

Anyway, just wanted to share that. Gotta go, more stuff to buy...
Emperor Darth Sharky

~SDC~
2,052 views 16 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
How about that tribute bug? Do the tributes you pay actually get paid or are they still added as income? In that case you will eard double with this method.

~SDC~
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
Is that really an exploit ? It looks like good banking LOL !
It's easy to fix anyway : AI should not accept trade of cash only resulting in a loss ..
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Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Herm, this seems fine . . if you are a better diplomat you should be able to swindle them . . and visa versa . .
Also one might need immediate funds and others might be willing to give loans for a prophet.
All good and normal! :)
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
but they are not getting a prophet! They are giving loans for a loss. That is like going to the bank and asking for a loan and them saying they will give you 10% interest on the loan (instead of charging 10% interest)

~SDC~
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
Assuming both sides of a deal are converted into a behind-the-scenes "diplocost" before the AI actually decides whether or not to accept, this makes sense. However, surely even a lead-eating AI running on ENIAC could do the maths on a cash-for-cash deal.

Having said that, it does make everyone with a credit-card equally stupid :)

Short-term gain for long term loss is not a new concept, and 12% interest over the term of the loan is not unreasonable :)

~SDC~
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
But with a credit card, you are getting a short-term gain (money now) in exchange for a long-term loss (interest charged). This is the time-value of money.

Yes, even the stupid AI settings should see a money-for-money trade and know they are getting swindled.

I have not tried this, but I suspect you could also offer the AI some money and ask for the same amount of money plus some other goods in return. The more money you offer and ask for, the better the goods you can ask for (assuming you have a better diplomacy skill than them).

The only way to stop this sort of abuse is to make all deals disadvantageous for the player. The better your diplo skill, the closer you can get to break-even, but it should always be at a loss. Right now, if you have a good diplo skill, you can trade for a gain...and trade and trade and trade. You make up in volume for the fact that your diplo skill is not top-notch.

Even if the trades were always for a loss to the humans, trading would still be valuable. It would just cut out the nonsensical trades the humans are using as loopholes. It would leave trades the humans were doing for strategic purposes (selling their research for cash, buying ships because they need them in a hurry, etc).

~SDC~
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top

I have just tried this, and it works :d

However, IMHO this is something that should be fixed. Sure, even in the BETA, minor races were there to be exploited. But I don't think the AI should hand over money for free.

Asmodean

~SDC~
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
Great idea, this! Will try it tonight :)

I had a better way, though: ask a race for a boatload of money (without offering anything in return). If they don't agree, blast a planet and ask them again.
Surprising how quickly they agree ;)
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
I tried it too, and in looking at how it works it looks very much like an unanticipated affect of code that works as intended. I can't see anything particularly buggy about it.

During the beta Brad stated that adding code to prevent every single cheesy trick that we find is impracticle. He and Cari did fix many bugs that did give rather cheesy results. But these were traced to legitimate coding errors.

However, what I am seeing in this tactic is that it gives a rather overwhelming advantage to the player that uses it. It seems to me that any AI with an intellegence above the lowest level should be able to recognize this as a grossly unfair scam and reject it. Perhaps the lowest level should permit it to aid the players just learning the game.

~SDC~
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
I would say that if you move up the AI intel level and get to a point where it does not work, then it makes sense. If it works any all AI settings, then it needs to be corrected. I mean if the AI is a "fool" or "sub-Norm", then it is fitting, that it should make those types of choices.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top

Hmmm...one problem with this tactic: If you rely too much in a minor civ inside your own territory, be prepared for major debts if that civ suddenly defects to you. Just had this, and I had to lower my spending from 90% to 50. It got real hard to keep up with the other major civs. But I think now, I'm getting them LOL

Asmodean
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
Be careful with this if you are playing with scarce planets. At first you will get more money, but when that runs out, you will end up with a debt that can bankrupt you if your money-making has not increased enough to handle it.The whole idea is predicated on the principle that whenpayback times around, your economy will be so large that this money will be negligible. :sniff!:
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
There are SO many exploits with minor races, I personally would like them removed from the game altogheter.

In my opionion minor races are just another sad example of a concept that does not work right.

For instance, I always use 100% of tax-income towards production.
My treasury is negative, of crouse, but if I need money for upkeep cost or in order to buy something, the minor civs are always "more than happy" to provide me the money needed.


-Elkku
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top

Eventually this tactic won me the game. I was way ahead of all the other civs, and off course this led to cultural victory. I don't think I'll employ this tactic again.

Asmodean
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
I don't see this as particularly abusive in an unrealistic sense. We do this kind of crap all the time as a nation. We practically strongarmed the Japanese into buying up the bad loans we gave folks like Citibank and Goldman Sachs during the "Mexican Loan Bailout". I hardly see how this is much different.
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
Actually if the minor race disappears from cultural conquest or military one you still get paid. That's been my experience.

Last night (1.02 before I did the update) I was at war with the Torians who were down to their last system. I was about to culturally conquest it so I didn't bother sending in any troops. I got the message that their world defected to me and so they were out of the game. BUT, before the turn ended I went in and made peace with them and they agreed to pay me 100 bc per turn for 24 turns (I let em off cheap). Then when the turn ended they disappeared from the relations screen and so were gone (tho interesting enuff unlike military conquest you get no cut scene). But I checked my economy for the next 24 turns and sure enuff, I got my 100 bc per turn.

So it appears the game honors the money agreements even if the race no longer exists. A friend of mine once was getting 250 bc per turn for 20 turns when the race decided to surrender to another race and he got the income for the rest of the turns that he was due the money. I don't know if the race that got the planets paid the money from it's treasury (which would suck) or if the game just gave him the cash.

So you will get paid if the civ disappears from the game so there is no worry about that.



~SDC~