Moral Inconsistency ......

I hear what you’re saying however I think most of what you’re describing is just a natural way of dealing with suffering around us. If everyone empathized with complete strangers like they do with people they know, are close to, or even just identify with, we would probable all go mad.

The degree in which we empathize is the main difference between a liberal and conservative. A liberal can place himself or herself or someone they care about into the shoes of a complete stranger. I think that’s why some of left are a little looney. It’s hard enough just deeply caring about the people we’re close to, little alone the whole world.

And you think a Conservative cannot? That we have no empathy?

If you re-read the first sentence I think it clearly states that I think conservatives empathize, just to a lesser degree than liberals.

A liberal stands in a poor person's shoes and says..."I wish I had some money." They then lobby for more entitlements.A Conserative stands in a poor person's shoes and says..."I wish I had a JOB." They then lobby for legislation that encourages economic growth.

You ever wonder why this is often true? It’s because conservatives can take a more reasoned approach to solving problems like poverty, it’s not as emotional of an issue with them. Liberals get very emotional about it and take it very personal, like it was a friend in need, which often leads to the “just do something now” solutions which can be short sighted.

I don't see one response as more empathetic than the other, and in fact, I see the conservative response as MORE empathetic because the solutions they seek are far more permanent, and their good effect long lasting.

No, conservatives are definitely not more empathetic but I’m not trying to say that’s a bad thing. I’m just trying to illustrate differences and one of the biggest reasons for that difference.

After the excuse is made, the liberal looks not to punish that behavior in order to prevent it's repetition, but out of 'empathy' seeks to soften or completely eliminate any natural (and painful) consequences of that behavior.

That’s my point; we’re more often than not enablers for those we care about. We forgive are friends over and over again for doing stupid shit and even try to protect them from the consequences of their mistakes. And forget about how much crap we let our offspring get away with and how we try to protect them from consequences. You said it yourself liberals do this out of the empathy they feel even for a stranger.

If everyone empathized with complete strangers like they do with people they know, are close to, or even just identify with, we would probable all go mad

First, I apologize for not responding as promptly as i would have liked to, i was away on business and didnt even have a chance to log on.

now as to the above quote..

i dont think this is true. and the strange thing is how can anyone feel that other fellow citizens are "complete strangers" specially if the issue is not just a few people.

Me for example, i know for sure that no one, no matter what, can eliminate poverty. However, when I think of our nation as a "whole" i feel it is a terrible thing that we have tens of millions of people living in very poor condition or homeless. it is not that i feel "sooo mushy and soft" about few poor or homeless people or even hundreds of thousands of them. i feel an insult when i know that in our rich nation there are tens of millions who are REALLY that way.

How to solve that is another issue. but the solution that every person thinks is the correct one is usually based on the person's attitude. if he/she feels the way i do, they will reach the same conclusion. but if they consider these millions "complete strangers" then the correct solution in their opinion will be different.

my point is really this: how can you feel that your fellow citizens are "complete starngers"?

and on major issues that affects the world-at-large, like wars, terrorism, AIDS, ..etc how can you feel disconnected while you KNOW that these things affects you whether you like it or not?

sooner or later, things that we think are not directly affecting us personally come back and in fact impact our lives. some of us have short memories .... that is why not many remember the cause-effect relationship between our own actions and the things we face in life both on personal and national levels

A liberal stands in a poor person's shoes and says..."I wish I had some money." They then lobby for more entitlements.A Conserative stands in a poor person's shoes and says..."I wish I had a JOB." They then lobby for legislation that encourages economic growth.

Before i answer your question, let me say this: i dont consider myself a liberal or a conservative. But honestly i never heard a "Liberal" say what you imply here. and i think that conservatives like to spread that myth in order to get people convinced with their views. in other words, i find it very dishonest on the conservative movement's part to use deciet as a mean of distracting and misleading people. it is very obvious in many cases nowadays.

the difefrence in the case you mentioned here is that "liberals" recognize that not ALL poors and homeless people are able to manage a job. the conservatives have no such distinction. that is the real difference.

If you look back at any program that "Liberals" proposed to fight poverty it always contained two purposes: create more jobs and help those who cant get one for one reason or another. there are always the chance of abuse, but corruption and abuse are not a "liberal" monopoly. and the liberal "people" (as opposed to "liberal" politicians") always say lets us correct the abuse not eliminate the programs. If abuse and corruption are reasons to eliminate programs, and i know you will flip on this , the most obvious program to be eliminated should be the military. its corruption and ineffeciencies are rampant but no one ever suggested we eliminate it. Anything done and managed by group of people is subject to the chance of abuse and corruption. we should fix that and try to minimize the damage not to say eliminate it and justify that by the abuse and ineffeciency involved. ALL businesses and government activities are prone to that and the good ones manage to fight the problems not eliminate the programs.

as misguided as *I* believe liberals are

this is really funny .... isnt it LW? misguided??? just like that? how "hoolier-than-thou" can you get .
Just kidding. it just sounds funny coming from you LW.

Now to your question:

So who decides what's 'moral?'

This is completely different question. i will answer it soon. however i was not questioning the morality of anyone. as a matter of fact i said i can understand if someone have a different stand on an issue that "I" consider immoral. i can accept that and I can argue with it. what i was questioning is the fact that "the same person" have two opposing stands on the same issue. the change in the stand comes when the issue becomes "personal". that is what i considered "moral inconsistency".

now to the heart of your question: who decides what's 'moral?

I believe that for each person, the "belief" system they were raised on decides that. and what is amazing is this: regardless of which belief system you look at, the moral values with respect to the major issues are the same. I am sure you and others will argue that is not true (you mentioned the difference between Christians as an example) but i think this arguement is a false one. dont look at what people do, look at the belief system ITSELF as it is set in its main documents.

From what I know about the 3 major Abrahamic religions, they are almost the same when it comes to the major issues, like theft, deciet, murders, sex, men-women relationships, dealing with others...etc. sometimes it is a word-for-word rules and directives. Other systems are not far off either.So regardless of what system you believe in, the moral sides of most issues are really not in question.

The problem we have has to do with the issue i raised in this article. Moral inconsistency is at the heart of the problem. People try to justify their actions by hiding behind slogans that marginalize "Values". if they really honest they will admit that each issue is never cut-and-dray Either/Or choice.

take abortion and death penalty that you mentioned: in both cases the issue is moral or immoral based on the circumstances. any belief system takes circumstances in consideration. nothing in this life is "morally" cut-and-dry thing. everything must be judged based on the circumstances in which it occured. I must add here that the circumstances are also determined based on the belief systems and are not a personal choice.

I must also add that i recognize that any belief system is subject to different understanding and interpretations by different scholars of that system. however, each system makes clear what its major guidelines are and any interpretations that deviates from that becomes clearly biased and not honest understanding of what the system intends. but people do that. that is why i said look at the system ITSELF not what people do.

And my second question has to do with self-interest. Do you believe acting in one's self-interest is automatically immoral? Wouldn't you agree that often, acting in your own interest IS the moral thing to do in certain circumstances?

I certainly agree with you on that. and I am surprised that you say:

I don't see morality and self-interest as being mutually exclusive, yet it seems you do?

How did you get the idea that i disagree with you on that?

But, there is a difefrence between self-interest and selfishness. i am sure we agree on that. and that is also determined by the morality of each person based on their belief system. selfishness is a complete disregard for others' self-interst which leads to decisions that benefits you but hurts the others without a legitimate reasons that compels you to do that.

as an example: people who will defend their own country to the death AND at the same time support invading another country for no good reason AND call the people there Terrorists and insurgents even though what those people are doing is no more than fighting the invaders of their land as any one of us will do to the invaders of our country. That is selfishness. You dont give others the same rights that you claim for yourself. that is not self-interest on our part. if our invasion was in response to a good reason, then the invasion would be justified. but still, we should expect those people to fight back, not say that they will meet us with flowers and build our strategy based on that..... hope you get the point.

seeking your just self-interest doesnt give you the right to assume that others dont have the same feelings and values that you have. you should know that others will defend their land as WE do, and if we are just in our attack on them we should be ready to deal with that when we defeat their armies. all of that if we had a good reason to attack, but denying them the rights we claim for ourselves when the invasion was not justified in the first place makes the whole thing even more immoral.

The same thing goes for any other issue that people claim things for themselves but deny others the same. like opposing abortion till they have a need for it, or opposing government program till they need it. or in reverse, support and benefir from government program THEN they oppose them after they reach their destination safely. Justice Thomas comes to mind. and many many people i see and hear them talking and i wonder where would they be if what they oppose now was not there for them. Big-talk business people do the same thing. remember Chrysler bail out, savings banks bail out, and all other programs that give-away billions to businesses for no good reason but when it comes to social programs they turn around and start talking about self-help and personal responsibilities even for people who obviously need help. whether this is right or wrong is not the issue but they should at least be consistent.

"Now that I'm safe, I'm pro-choice!"

this is funny too. you made the right decision, why burden the poor baby with this heavy-and ugly stuff. but it is telling really .... i think you got my point.

How in the world did we get that way? and how do we get back to sanity and common sense?

I wish i had an answer.

If conservative thought becomes the dominant ideology, humanity will destroy itself.

Yea that’s sanity ">

Especially considering that the average LIBERAL from 50 years ago would be far too conservative for todays liberal circles. Given the idea that conservatism destroys humanity, I'm shocked that somehow we survived, oh, 100,000 years without the benefit of modern liberalism.

Here's a little excercise. Watch the news for riots, caused by political and economic issues. Compare how many "conservative" nations have them as opposed to more liberal nations, like France, where there are riots regularly now. Ask yourself if all this kindness breeds contentment.

Nowhere in my brief sarcastic reply to LW’s brief and sarcastic statement did I suggest liberalism should be the prevailing ideology. I believe in a balance.

Especially considering that the average LIBERAL from 50 years ago would be far too conservative for todays liberal circles. Given the idea that conservatism destroys humanity, I'm shocked that somehow we survived, oh, 100,000 years without the benefit of modern liberalism.

Well 99,900 years of that statement is irrelevant since we didn’t have the ability then to destroy ourselves. And yes I believe we survived thus far the nuclear era because of liberal thought, so have a little respect.

Here's a little excercise. Watch the news for riots, caused by political and economic issues. Compare how many "conservative" nations have them as opposed to more liberal nations, like France, where there are riots regularly now. Ask yourself if all this kindness breeds contentment.

Your comparing riots to wars, that’s a riot. Hell the only time anything other than property gets damaged in a liberal riot is when the police start cracking heads. How many people were killed in that, I don’t think that cartoon is funny riot?

Here's an exersize for you. Name one war or one act of genocide led by liberal ideology.

However as you pointed in the “Religion of Peace” blog it’s people not the ideology that cause things to get crazy..

Watch the news for riots, caused by political and economic issues. Compare how many "conservative" nations have them as opposed to more liberal nations, like France, where there are riots regularly now. Ask yourself if all this kindness breeds contentment.

Name one war or one act of genocide led by liberal ideology.

I believe if there was moral consistency both types of acts would be deminished. people will have less reason to riot and nations would be less trigger-happy.

If we just apply the same standards to others as we do for ourselves, things would improve in a very big way.

Here's an exersize for you. Name one war or one act of genocide led by liberal ideology.

Without google or a lot of delving - Stalinist USSR, Maoist China. Tibet. Hungary.

How are Socialist revolutions against imperialist oppressors, led by a liberal ideology?

How are Socialist revolutions against imperialist oppressors, led by a liberal ideology?

To deny that Communism is a liberal ideology is to so define liberalism as nothing can meet your definition.  However, to the vast majority, Communism is a liberal ideology. 

Second Point:  And who was threatening Russia between 1918 and 1940?  And was that threat enough to murder 20million?

I guess you can say that Tibet was threatening China too, as I know they were a fierce warring nation prior to their "utopian" assimilation.  Hungary, as well as Poland were very dangerous threats to the old USSR as well.  At least Poland Shared a border from which to launch their blitzkreig against Stalin and Kruschev.

To deny that Communism is a liberal ideology is to so define liberalism as nothing can meet your definition. However, to the vast majority, Communism is a liberal ideology.

How can Communism be defined as a "Liberal Ideology" while there is nothing "Liberal" in that system? Working people have no rights to unionize, no choice but to work where the State tells them to, no voice in determining what goes on in their place of work while the "Elite" have a dictatorial authority over whoever have the misfortune of reporting to them. And the people in general, workers or not have no voice in anything concerning their country?

"Liberalism" is not that. In fact it is the exact opposite of that. but this in any case is another issue.

"Liberalism" is not that.

Pure communism is not that either.  You are looking at the implementation of communism.  Just as Pure Liberalism is not in and of itself bad, the implementation often is. 

Liberalism, in its true form here in the US, is about the state doing a cradle to grave care taking of the individual.  And in its pure form, so is communism.  The execution of communsim is imperfect since it is done by imperfect souls.  But the philosophy is liberal.

We have had several debates of late about how evil (or good) some of the major religions of the world are.  IN their pure form, they are meant to be good.  But then they are corupted by imperfect people to do evil.  That does not make the core tenets of those religions evil, just the implementation.  But I dont see many people arguing that the inquisition was not done by Catholics because they were not following the core beliefs of their religion.

That does not make the core tenets of those religions evil, just the implementation. But I dont see many people arguing that the inquisition was not done by Catholics because they were not following the core beliefs of their religion.

I fully agree with that. It is a terrible thing that many have become "morally" selective even in politics not just religion.

Liberalism, in its true form here in the US, is about the state doing a cradle to grave care taking of the individual

I honestly cant say that i heard or read that anyone of the main-stream people on the left call for that. That may be an extreme adopted by very few on the extreme left. I dont think we should judge the majority of the left based on that.

I think Communism has a sinister element in it regarding the control of people's lives, not just taking care of them. Liberalism doesnt have that element though.

I think Communism has a sinister element in it regarding the control of people's lives, not just taking care of them. Liberalism doesnt have that element though.

Not all Liberals are communists is what should be stated.  So while some elements of liberalism do have those elements (I use the example of hate crimes - which is another form of thought control), not all do.  Just as not all Elements of any ism contain the essence of the evil parts.

Each ism contains good, as well as bad. 

I was going to go on, but realize that this is going far afield of your original article, so we will leave it for another thread.  But I will leave it as while liberalism is not evil, it contains factions that are evil (just as conservatism does), and they are capable and have done things in their name that may not fit with their pure goals, but are evil in their actions.