Nice game, but early game ...

I've played the game for a while now and I think it's pretty good, at least when I play against an AI.

When I play online, it's just about spamming frigates, then corvettes, then bombers. And there's just nothing I can do about it, except to watch my smaller fleet get annihilated, and to see my capital ships get bombed to shit without any chance.

Can't you make the early game more interesting than this?

Take the weapon upgrades for example - you get a 5% boost and it costs you more than a frigate. So you need about 30 frigates before it becomes interesting to upgrade your ships. It takes a long time to build 30 frigates and in the meantime colonize your worlds and such. Why is that 5% boost so expensive ?! You can't upgrade your weapons all that time, it's just not worth it.

The guns for planetary defense are also pretty much useless. They too cost about as much as a frigate and against an AI player I suppose that's ok. But a human player can just ignore them because they have a short range and they are fixed to their position. Also, they are powerless against bomberspam. So what's the use of them in the early game? Basically none... and late in the game, when you can finally afford them, then you hit a brick wall - you can build about 20 of them in an average solar system ... that is 20 guns against a huge armade of hundreds of ships.

The figther bays are also kind of useless. For TEC at least. They do a bit of flack damage and give you 2 fighters, but you can only build about 6 of them. That hardly slows down a late game fleet.

Now the starbases on the other hand ... those are really, really powerful. And expensive. And again, limited range and they don't move (except the Vasari). So again, powerless against a bomber spam and also against long range torpedoe ships. Imagine what happens when the enemy attacks and your fleet is several jumps away? A good player willl just rape your planetary system. And why? Because the attacker has a longer range weapon than the defender.

What's the use of a capital ship? Basically none. It costs a lot of money and takes a long time to upgrade. And then it gets destroyed by a bomber spam... just useless.

There's also another way to reduce that "problem", namely to reduce additional damage if too many vessels target one ship. It's kind of an efficiency loss. In real life you also don't have hundreds of bombers targeting a single ship, it would just get too crowded and they would crash into each other or they would need to take evasive manouvers to avoid a crash. At the very least they come in waves and not all at once. Same goes for the corvettes of course, why would 100 corvettes be able to attack a capital ship all at once and each of them doing as much damage as if he were alone?

 

38,648 views 42 replies
Reply #1 Top

99% of what you just posted also applies to all competitive rts games, including the Starcraft series, which is like the holy grail of the genre

You say that the game is all about rushing and too fast for you. Then you go on to say the upgrades should be made more powerful (which would in turn make the game faster). I'm very confused about what you really want then. 
 
Ever heard of the maginot line? It was a big defensive fortification that the French built in the 1930's to act as a defense against Germany. Supposedly it was impenetrable. But when WW2 started, the Germans simply bypassed it. 
 
Same thing applies here. All good RTS's defenses are meant to supplement a defensive army, not replace it. One turret can actually help out alot in early game battles. The key thing is positioning; you don't simply place these babies anywhere. Surround your factories or other important structures with them. Besides, you obviously haven't played that much multiplayer or you know that the Vasari one is ridiculously op at the moment, at all game stages.
 
As for the fighter bays, I actually find the TEC ones to be quite useful in thinning out masses of strikecraft with their special ability. Vasari fighter bays are also very powerful, trapping all enemy strikecraft and preventing them from attacking.
 

Now the starbases on the other hand ... those are really, really powerful. And expensive. And again, limited range and they don't move (except the Vasari). So again, powerless against a bomber spam and also against long range torpedoe ships. Imagine what happens when the enemy attacks and your fleet is several jumps away? A good player willl just rape your planetary system. And why? Because the attacker has a longer range weapon than the defender.
End of quote
 
I suggest you take a look at this post: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/379562/page/1/#2677224
 
It explains the whole counter system in this game. Its not updated for rebellion but it should include everything you just mentioned.
 
Also capital ships arent useless... they actually are the most powerful late game.
 
EDIT: Crap quoting system
 
 
Reply #2 Top

Well sure, fighter bays could be useful, but if you build those then you don't have tactical slots left for guns. About 6 fighter bays is all you can build to protect an important world, and then you don't have hardly any room for guns left. And there's no way to defend against a bomber spam or long-range torpedoes and of all things those torpedoes are very, very powerful.

"Ever heard of the maginot line?"

Yes. In principle it worked, it forced the germans to go through Belgium, which didn't have such a line. Anyway I don't suggest that defenses become impenetrable, I just suggest that at the moment they are weak and at most slow down the enemy a little because the AI at least attacks the turrets first. You know, as a support for a fleet they are cool enough ... but stand-alone when your fleet is somewhere else, defenses are laughable especially later in the game when the player or the AI brings in torpedo ships and bombers.

"Also capital ships arent useless... they actually are the most powerful late game."

But not against bombers or a Titan... I don't build many capital ships anymore, even against the AI. When the capital ships get destroyed and get back at level 1, they are weak. I just build 1, the Akkan, for colonizing and an attack bonus.

 

Reply #3 Top

Quoting GeomanNL, reply 2
or a Titan
End of GeomanNL's quote

Actually capitalships are usually quite valueable against lone titans, especially the Dunov/Radiance/Kortul as they can drain titan antimatter. As bigger targets they are also more resistant to AoE attacks, making them better than frigates against all titans except the Coronata. I usually find it is the frigate fleet or bombers that often escort the titan that really kills them.

Again humans it is very much a skill to learn how to use capitalships correctly, since after mid game a 50 fleet supply cap cannot withstand the focus fire from a 400+ fleet supply force for very long, thus knowing when to seriously commit your capitalships into battle to use their abilities then withdraw to releative safety is crucial.


Again really it is the bombers that are the problem, the late game swarms you encounter cannot be run from unless you happen to be very lucky with a Halcyon/Kortul/Kol.  :S

Reply #4 Top

* Weapon upgrades (and other research) - these are useful because it's limited how fast you can produce ships, meaning you should spend at least a little money on these upgrades. While expensive early, they don't increase your fleet upkeep cost, meaning they're actually a very economical way of increasing your fleet's potency.

 

* Planetary guns - Not useless: situational. For their cost, they're much, much more efficient than frigates. A gauss gun may not be able to run anywhere, but if you can make that big battle take place somewhere where you have gun coverage, you'll win. Hangar bays are even better. You can keep making the argument that 'it can't stop a huge fleet' - simple fact is, for their cost, you get more firepower with stationary defenses than ships. That huge fleet cost a lot more than your defenses!

 

* Starbases are extremely potent defense because an opponent can't bypass them - it's either fight them head on or have them damage/disable your entire fleet due to their phase lane disruption ability. Due to this ability, starbases can precisely force your opponent to fight your stationary defenses. You talk about how they're 'powerless against bomber spam' and ignore the fact that a) 'again, bomber spam' isn't free, that fleet costs a lot more than your starbase and b ) the opponent can just defend the starbase with their own fleet, cancelling your 'bomber spam' (though I will concede that the AI doesn't do this very well - but try human opponents!) and making the starbase a formidable target indeed.

 

* Capital ships - structures are useless, starbases are useless and now capital ships are useless? So what's *not* useless, frigates and corvetttes? It's true, though, that capital ships don't have as much direct firepower as their cost in regular ships. That doesn't make them useless in any way, however, their much higher survivability, ability to level up and powerful special abilities make them worth their cost. Their role is primarily to lead a fleet though, not to make up one by themselves.

 

* Shield mitigation - you're basically arguing that the game doesn't have shield mitigation and should have - well, it does. The game already makes it so that attacking something with 100 ships is inefficient. I don't understand what you were trying to convey here.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 1
I suggest you take a look at this post: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/379562/page/1/#2677224
 
It explains the whole counter system in this game. Its not updated for rebellion but it should include everything you just mentioned.
End of Sinkillr's quote

That's news to me... I'm pretty sure it has all the rebellion stuff in there.

It might not be up to 1.52 though.

Reply #6 Top

The chart makes no mention of corvettes or titans...

Reply #7 Top

alright... I'll take a look.... I just got a new PC and don't have open office on it yet, so it'll be a bit.

I distinctly remember having to come up with some way of doing corvettes because they were the only frigate to be split between 6 factions instead of 3, until hours later I figured out the only difference was their special ability :)

EDIT: ok, so I did it right away... everything is there. Titans, corvettes,

Are you sure you didn't save the old link somewhere or something? I think I switched to a drop box share at the same time. anyhow, I might get any stat changes that happened between release and now into the sheet soon. I just found some extensions for Open Office that might solve a lot of the pain on updates. Would be simpler if Excel had a reasonable price

Reply #8 Top

Sure, if there's a fleet around then a starbase is very useful, at least the Vasari one that can move. The stationary ones are not that good, because the enemy can just keep its distance.

But you miss my main point I'm trying to make ... the defense is completely useless when there's no fleet around to aid it. The enemy just has to make a bunch of torpedo cruisers and destroy it from a distance. Or an insane amount of bombers and look! The defense (starbase, guns) can't really do anything against it. And by the time you arrive, most of the defenses are gone while the enemy has suffered no losses. It actually has gained some experience... hell even when a fleet is around, it's really hard to counter an AI attack of Titan + lots of ships + a bunch of torpedo cruisers and bombers mixed in, basically your starbase and any defenses are toast, or you send you fleet out to kill the torpedo ships and lose a lot of ships in the process ...

And the defenses don't scale well. The fleet can be upgraded to 2000 fleet points or more. The defense can have at most about 35 tactical slots. That doesn't even come near.

So basically early game it's useless because it's so expensive, small and easy to avoid (except against the AI, which happily attacks the guns with its frigates even if there's no real need to, at least early game ... late game it can outrange them with LRM frigates and Torpedo Cruisers).

Late game it's relatively cheap, but again too small and especially too short-ranged to make a real difference when it has to do its job - namely to protect the planet while the fleet is fighting elsewhere.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for impenetrable defenses or such, that would be completely lame. It would just be nice if they would able to counter long range torpedoes and bombers more effectively, so that the enemy is forced to lose at least *some* of its units on your defenses, and not *none*.

Because honestly, what good is a defense, when there's a Titan + bunch of frigates + bunch of light carriers just sitting at the edge of your gravity well, pummeling your guns and starbase to shit. You just suffer a huge loss on your investment and the enemy loses precisely nothing, except maybe a few minutes of its time, likely not even long enough for your fleet to get back in time (depends how far away it is) before most of your defenses are wiped out. 

Reply #9 Top

Your rhetoric keep circulating around words such as 'just' doing something. The enemy can't 'just' do anything. A starbase can't 'just' be destroyed. A starbase also can't 'just' be avoided since it will disrupt phase lanes and launch strike craft. The enemy can't 'just' build a number of anti-structure frigates and 'just' get them into range. The enemy can't 'just' build a huge fleet. The fleet defending your starbase won't 'just' happen to be somewhere else. The enemy won't 'just' have a Titan.

 

The game has a number of serious problems, but none of what you've mentioned are amongst them. It also sounds like you need to realize that orbital defenses and starbases aren't meant to stand alone, but instead are there to support your fleet.

Reply #10 Top

Of course they can.

Here's an example: A hard AI with 2x more income than me can build a huge fleet and split his fleet in 2. One will keep my fleet busy at my homeworld. The other harasses another world. Now fortunately that happened while he only had frigates and a few LRM frigates, but imagine what'll happen later in the game. You only need a small fleet to completely destroy a very expensive defense.

Here's another example: I've decided to attack the AI. Meanwhile it decides to send a fleet to my worlds, while keeping me busy with a smaller fleet of his own. Goodbye worlds.

A Vasari player jumps across several star systems and outruns my fleet. Goodbye defenses.

A big AI fleet arrives (and the AI has a lot of income so it really is big). It has a mix of heavy cruisers, frigates, battle ships, a Titan, torpedo cruisers and some light carriers. I'm glad I've my starbase on my side and I can hold out, but then those torpedo cruisers jump in, and another one and another one... and I'm already boxed in, I can't move my fleet out of the protection of my starbase and Titan just to destroy a few torpedo cruisers ... they'll get blasted to bits.

THAT is the problem I want to bring accross.

It's extremely hard to defend against such things and losing a starbase (and structures) is really bothersome because you've to build a new one and upgrade it again from the start.

Now MAYBE you are a pro player and MAYBE you know exactly what to do and MAYBE you always win against and AI and MAYBE you know how to counter all those things and MAYBE you always happen to have some bombers nearby, but I think it's pretty darn difficult. And killing a dozen torpedo cruisers takes time, even with bombers (from hangars). And they do lots of damage, destroying your starbase before you know it, even a fully upgraded one. I think that simply sucks. You got this enormous starbase with all those weapons, and they can't even fire a few long-range torpedoes to address that problem ... worse, if your starbase is on one side of the planet, it can't even attack a few siege frigates on the other side of the planet, it's just too damn far away. And sure... they can't occupy your world, but I think it's just silly.

But also don't get me wrong ... I think it's a nice game despite this. After all, I can do the same to his worlds. And the defense is useful insofar that it keeps pirates and rebels at bay. And yes, it's a great help when you defend against the enemy. For those reasons alone I do build some defenses.

But I just want it to become a little more useful than that, because after all, a defense is a huge investement no matter what and I don't like it getting outranged by torpedo cruisers.

 

Reply #11 Top

I'll agree that massive amounts of bombers are a problem at the moment. However it hasn't always been this way.

You have to be smart and not let the AI get so far ahead. If they bring bombers, attack the carriers. Your only chance is to produce LFs faster than they can die or (if your factory at that world is gone) bring them in sizable groups. Be prepared for a counter attack though, that's a lot of fleet points you just freed up. Luckily, the direct counter to LFs are LRFs, and corvettes are good against LRFs, cheap to deploy, and don't take a lot of fleet. If the above doesn't at least show you how it can be done,  you're too far behind economically... new game.

Also, torpedo cruisers are supposed to take out starbases, that's why they exist

Reply #12 Top

Well the Vasari starbase can move and counter a small-scale attack pretty easily. Why should the TEC be so defenseless against a small fleet? It's just too easy to destroy a fully upgraded, hugely expensive starbase with those weapons. They do heavy damage AND they have long range. Why both? Why would a handful of units be able to destroy a complete defense (if you don't bring in a fleet) ?

 

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Apheirox, reply 9
Your rhetoric keep circulating around words such as 'just' doing something. The enemy can't 'just' do anything. A starbase can't 'just' be destroyed. A starbase also can't 'just' be avoided since it will disrupt phase lanes and launch strike craft. The enemy can't 'just' build a number of anti-structure frigates and 'just' get them into range. The enemy can't 'just' build a huge fleet. The fleet defending your starbase won't 'just' happen to be somewhere else. The enemy won't 'just' have a Titan.
End of Apheirox's quote

 

  1. Build carriers.
  2. Jump in
  3. When in range of the starbase, retreat away from it. Take minor losses at best. When not in range sit back and wait until your bombers have blown it out of the sky

 

The phase effect of a starbase only happens if you jump away from the gravity well. It does remove a percentage of the CURRENT hull points of the affected ships. So if a ship only has 10 hull points remaining, it will still survive the jump. And it does remove antimatter.

 

None of this does make it necessary to NOT avoid the starbase, and it is quite easy in most gravity wells to ignore a non Vasari Starbase alltogether. You might be incapable of getting the planet for now, but it does not hinder you from happily flying arround it.

 

Only the smallest gravity wells bring incoming fleets into certain range of your starbase (if well placed) and that does only really help when you are TEC with BRB.(That did receive an unjustified nerf a while ago).

 

As Advent, dont even bother.... no human opponent which is not totally dumb will stay long enough in range of your Starbase to allow Meteor Storm to do more than superficial damage.

 

 

As for hangar bays on the Starbases... yes, they help. But they wont do much against a late game fleet..... just to few strike craft there.

 

Not to mention, that you have to give up other upgrades for it to be on maximal level.

 

 

Starbases were designed to fend of fleets consisting of Heavy Cruisers and Frigates..... a job they do quite well..... which is one of the reasons nobody uses heavy cruisers.

 

Last but not least, yes the Orkulus can be avoided, but unlike other starbases doing so requires permanent attention.... and you can send your fleet right circle and the Orky left circle arround the gravity well.... that makes space not deadly a premium at most planets.

Reply #14 Top

I feel like the problem here isn't the game mechanics but rather the fact that your enemy is getting a bigger fleet faster than you are. If your enemy can afford a dozen or more carriers and 10 torpedo cruisers in addition to a couple of capitals, long range frigates, anti-fighter frigates and the like then you've got more than your starbase to worry about.

Before you blame the Hard AI income bonus I'll say I'm in the midst of playing a game against 3 Hard AIs (allied against me). I've got one AI left to destroy. I'm a bit of a noob but one thing I've noticed against the AI is even a small fleet (5 long range frigates and a single carrier) in addition to a starbase can make the AI turn around. The AI only likes to show up and fight when it has a serious advantage or has nowhere to run. An even better strategy I've started using on the AI is to keep my fleet one jump away (or a phase stabilizer away as Vasari) and then once they get deep into the gravity well I jump in and slaughter them.

Reply #15 Top

It's great that you have no trouble against 3 AI. Are you playing Vasari with moving starbases and its ability to jump anywhere within their own empire in 1 big jump? Try playing as TEC against 3 AI, it's probably a lot harder then. I haven't tried that, I think 1:1 is already hard enough.

 

Reply #16 Top

Quoting Apheirox, reply 4

* Shield mitigation - you're basically arguing that the game doesn't have shield mitigation and should have - well, it does. The game already makes it so that attacking something with 100 ships is inefficient. I don't understand what you were trying to convey here.
End of Apheirox's quote

I still don't understand how shield mitigation effectively does this... I get that the more quickly a ship takes damage, the faster S.M charges up. What I don't understand is how this means that focus firing becomes inefficient?

 

On topic: I've found recently that the AI is stomping on me all the time.. out of practice I guess..

Reply #17 Top

Advent defenses against AI are very good, with shields and many upgrades, once I destroyed like 10 level 6-8 Vasari capital ships and a supporting (though smaller) fleet with minor losses on my own (10 turrets and 2 hangars in exchnge for his capital ships lol). Without a starbase. Stupid AI thought from the total firepower he will win easily, well, he was absolutely wrong. I had no fleet in the vicinity (it was totally on the other front, I was like 10 jumps away) so I decided to do some testing, it was really funny.

 

Hard AI can be easily defeated even on smaller maps without building starbases if you play efficiently and punish the AI for every mistake he makes, like killing lone capital ships that he ordered to attack your world, or clearing small harassing fleets, after some time killing every small fleet makes a huge difference and takes away his resource advantage.

 

I must agree with GeomanNL, defenses are ridiculous in the game. A well upgraded starbase easily dies from a small fleet even without torpedo cruisers, it's range is stupidly short (can't even reach the krosovs at the other side of the planet, so good I have a starbase that costed me a fortune...). Turrets are even worse, and no defense is good against bombers (except the Vasari hangar bay, but thats only one race that hardly needs any more advantage), so basically I can defend my worlds against like 2-5 stripes of ships  (depending on composition), but if the attacker has some bombers my defenses are totally useless. Sounds totally legitimate.

Against humans I won't even say anything, as TEC or Advent it never helps to build defenses, and many times your starbase will be useless as your opponent will simply avoid it or use bombers to get it down, as it is defenseless against them and you can't stop his bombers.

Quoting ARESIV, reply 13
As for hangar bays on the Starbases... yes, they help. But they wont do much against a late game fleet..... just to few strike craft there.
End of ARESIV's quote

Nothing helps against a late game fleet, especially bomber spam. Biggest problem is the current uselessness of the fighters (and if you have 14 fighter squad on your starbase your opponent will just laugh at you, because they are worthless and those 14 bomber squads that will lose some bombers while your starbase is defeated... not a major loss for the attacker), they either die too fast to flak or too slow to kill bombers in time. BRB is awesome, you only need to have a opponent who is either stupid, or is not paying attention to his fleet. Well, expecting this from a skilled player... :D So if he is not in range of the Argonev, and never will be, your Red Button was just a waste of money that cannot be gained back.

 

Against AI I never used the red button, but I guess it can solve the problem sometimes, eradicating the whole fleet of the AI in one moment making room for quick counterattack.

Reply #19 Top

Just to validate that I know what I am talking about. Currently I am playing against 6 HARD AIs allied (can field 12000 in fleet supply) against me and have no problems of beating 2 vicious (4000 fleet supply with almost instant replacements). Vicious ais field their titans and super weapons well inside 20 min mark they have some research perks and not confirmed but i belive their titan gets auto lvl (similar to advent caps)

 

Quoting GeomanNL, reply 10
Here's another example: I've decided to attack the AI. Meanwhile it decides to send a fleet to my worlds, while keeping me busy with a smaller fleet of his own. Goodbye worlds.
End of GeomanNL's quote

My advice would be split the fleet. Here is the deal AI is very very stupid. AI will always attack first thing that was build first not one that is build closest to where he jumps in. If you keep any ship even 1 corvette in gravity well he will chase it ignoring everything else until he kills it. Yes he might shoot at structures you have but he will do that only because they are in range by default he will move his ships toward his target. 

So try this:

Keep one or 2 carrier caps in gravity well he is attacking with fighter squadrons.

Remember when it gets damaged retreat repair in nearby grav well and jump back in. Switch them if necessary.

On hard any capital ship will do but above you need carriers because of bomber spam. Keep it inside your defences which as tec should consist of Starbase 4-5 repair bays and rest can be split into turrets or hangars. Make sure you build starbase first and then cluster your defences near but behind star base.

When AI comes near to attack your caps (you are using caps because of durability and free lvling you get by annihilating enemy fleet) move your cap ship away from starbase so he passes trough it. After his fleet surrounded starbase move your capital ship back between defences where repair bays are and circle it around his fleet and your star base. 

Unless your caps aren't ones with AM drain abilities (kortul, dunov, radiance) and have some points already in those abilities above strategy will not work if he attacks with titans. For titans best thing you can do besides drain it AM is to cluster turrets in a way around star base so that they are not affected by their AOE attacks at the same time.

AI always like to keep his fleet tightly clustered so those ogrows you are talking about (yes they will target structures but they will target star base) will come into the range of starbase weapons. Same will happen with carriers. I have not seen AI leave carrier portion of the fleet on edge of gravity well if he has capital ship or titan present.

What you must not forget is to scout. You have to see how many ships he plans to attack with so you bring those reinforcements if needed. And bombers are not as good as fighters against ogrows or starfish. Even better is fleet of corvettes nearby (20-30) Use those only if you think there is too many anti structure frigates as you will probably loose them all. 

On hard you should not have a problem but on higher lvls advent starfish causes in loosing structures only because it attacks 4 targets simultaneously. 

 


Your defences wont work first time .You will need some practice with it how to set them up and how to move your capitals but after a while you will realize that AI needs those bonuses he is getting to compensate for stupidity.... 

 

Quoting StormingKiwi, reply 16
I still don't understand how shield mitigation effectively does this... I get that the more quickly a ship takes damage, the faster S.M charges up. What I don't understand is how this means that focus firing becomes inefficient?
End of StormingKiwi's quote

Shield mitigation negates dmg received.

So you have fleet that does 1000 dps.

Ship with 65% of shield mitigation will receive only 350 dps (-65%) .

And if ship had 20% shield mitigation it would receive 800 dps (-20%).  

 

Quoting GeomanNL, reply 10
And killing a dozen torpedo cruisers takes time, even with bombers (from hangars
End of GeomanNL's quote

Overlapping repair platforms should be main thing you build if you consider defences.

As TEC most of the time I completely ignore hangars . If I need to I rather keep 4 carrier frigates on the edge of gravity well away from fighting to complement those caps i have there to lvl up. 

Unless you are vasari. Vasari hangars with phasic traps are much more useful. As Vasari I replace repair platforms (keep 2 that overlap) with hangars and have about 10 overseers ready just in case. If you play vasari turrets with disruptor nanities upg are a must especially on higher lvls ais.

As advent 2 overlapping hangars with shield bestoval are enough with 3-4 repair platforms and rest invested with turrets with that turret research. As advent disruption matrix on starbase is very useful. 

Reply #20 Top

I will agree that bombers destroy defenses with alarming efficiency and I personally think that starbases should have weapons capable of engaging strikecraft much like titans do. Maybe have the last weapon upgrade give anti strike craft weapons in addition to the other final upgrade (although I feel a default starbase should be able to engage strike craft).

The Death Star didn't have any means to deal with fighters and we all know what happened to it... twice (SPOILER ALERT: the Death Star 1 and 2 were both destroyed by fighters - some may argue that a Freighter (Millenium Falcon) destroyed Death Star II but that's nit picking)

Reply #21 Top

Quoting Greg30007, reply 19

Just to validate that I know what I am talking about. Currently I am playing against 6 HARD AIs allied (can field 12000 in fleet supply) against me and have no problems of beating 2 vicious (4000 fleet supply with almost instant replacements). Vicious ais field their titans and super weapons well inside 20 min mark they have some research perks and not confirmed but i belive their titan gets auto lvl (similar to advent caps)

 


Quoting GeomanNL, reply 10Here's another example: I've decided to attack the AI. Meanwhile it decides to send a fleet to my worlds, while keeping me busy with a smaller fleet of his own. Goodbye worlds.

My advice would be split the fleet. Here is the deal AI is very very stupid. AI will always attack first thing that was build first not one that is build closest to where he jumps in. If you keep any ship even 1 corvette in gravity well he will chase it ignoring everything else until he kills it. Yes he might shoot at structures you have but he will do that only because they are in range by default he will move his ships toward his target. 

So try this:

Keep one or 2 carrier caps in gravity well he is attacking with fighter squadrons.

Remember when it gets damaged retreat repair in nearby grav well and jump back in. Switch them if necessary.

On hard any capital ship will do but above you need carriers because of bomber spam. Keep it inside your defences which as tec should consist of Starbase 4-5 repair bays and rest can be split into turrets or hangars. Make sure you build starbase first and then cluster your defences near but behind star base.

When AI comes near to attack your caps (you are using caps because of durability and free lvling you get by annihilating enemy fleet) move your cap ship away from starbase so he passes trough it. After his fleet surrounded starbase move your capital ship back between defences where repair bays are and circle it around his fleet and your star base. 

Unless your caps aren't ones with AM drain abilities (kortul, dunov, radiance) and have some points already in those abilities above strategy will not work if he attacks with titans. For titans best thing you can do besides drain it AM is to cluster turrets in a way around star base so that they are not affected by their AOE attacks at the same time.

AI always like to keep his fleet tightly clustered so those ogrows you are talking about (yes they will target structures but they will target star base) will come into the range of starbase weapons. Same will happen with carriers. I have not seen AI leave carrier portion of the fleet on edge of gravity well if he has capital ship or titan present.

What you must not forget is to scout. You have to see how many ships he plans to attack with so you bring those reinforcements if needed. And bombers are not as good as fighters against ogrows or starfish. Even better is fleet of corvettes nearby (20-30) Use those only if you think there is too many anti structure frigates as you will probably loose them all. 

On hard you should not have a problem but on higher lvls advent starfish causes in loosing structures only because it attacks 4 targets simultaneously. 

 


Your defences wont work first time .You will need some practice with it how to set them up and how to move your capitals but after a while you will realize that AI needs those bonuses he is getting to compensate for stupidity.... 

 


Quoting StormingKiwi, reply 16I still don't understand how shield mitigation effectively does this... I get that the more quickly a ship takes damage, the faster S.M charges up. What I don't understand is how this means that focus firing becomes inefficient?

Shield mitigation negates dmg received.

So you have fleet that does 1000 dps.

Ship with 65% of shield mitigation will receive only 350 dps (-65%) .

And if ship had 20% shield mitigation it would receive 800 dps (-20%).  

 


Quoting GeomanNL, reply 10 And killing a dozen torpedo cruisers takes time, even with bombers (from hangars

Overlapping repair platforms should be main thing you build if you consider defences.

As TEC most of the time I completely ignore hangars . If I need to I rather keep 4 carrier frigates on the edge of gravity well away from fighting to complement those caps i have there to lvl up. 

Unless you are vasari. Vasari hangars with phasic traps are much more useful. As Vasari I replace repair platforms (keep 2 that overlap) with hangars and have about 10 overseers ready just in case. If you play vasari turrets with disruptor nanities upg are a must especially on higher lvls ais.

As advent 2 overlapping hangars with shield bestoval are enough with 3-4 repair platforms and rest invested with turrets with that turret research. As advent disruption matrix on starbase is very useful. 
End of Greg30007's quote

This is awesome stuff :) (For killing the AI - how does it stack up against Humans?)

On my comment - yes. I don't understand how that means that Shield Mitigation makes focus firing inefficient. If you have a fleet that does 1000 dps, and you attack a fleet that does 1000 dps, if you focus fire yes SM will increase more quickly but you will be doing 350dps to one target. If both fleets have 10 ships and you attack each ship individually, you will initially do 80dps, and this will decrease to 35dps. You're still doing 10 times more damage focus firing.

Reply #22 Top

Quoting StormingKiwi, reply 21
This is awesome stuff (For killing the AI - how does it stack up against Humans?)

On my comment - yes. I don't understand how that means that Shield Mitigation makes focus firing inefficient. If you have a fleet that does 1000 dps, and you attack a fleet that does 1000 dps, if you focus fire yes SM will increase more quickly but you will be doing 350dps to one target. If both fleets have 10 ships and you attack each ship individually, you will initially do 80dps, and this will decrease to 35dps. You're still doing 10 times more damage focus firing.
End of StormingKiwi's quote

Humans are generally smarter and will just bypass planet with star base. Although there are some noobs who suicide their fleet against set defences or even worse trickle 1 or 2 ships at time against your whole fleet that has 10 or 100 times more firepower than attacking ship.

It makes it inefficient because more dmg ship receives higher mitigation it will have. You would have to ask devs or modders what function for its calculation is but I do not think it is linear and once it reaches certain ceiling it does not increase any more. 

And no your assumption is not correct if each ship attack different ship mitigation wont jump very high unless that ship is doing massive amount of damage.

So there is a trade off do you hit one ship by one ship and keep their mitigation low or do you focus fire 1 ship at the time and once you kill it thus reduce total dmg of whole fleet by dmg that destroyed ship was inflicting and possibly get rid of any abilities that ship might have . 

Sins is easy to learn but very hard to master. And learning curve is higher than any other game I ever played

Reply #23 Top

As a matter of interest, would you submit  the game file recordings of games vs hard AIs so we get an idea of how you handle it? 

 

See that's what I have never understood. It stands to reason that you put your Starbases in the economic centre of your empire. You force the opponent to engage them or leave an industrial powerhouse at their back. And most of the upgrades support that (especially orbital command and docking booms). I don't get why you wouldn't invest in your defences so that priority was given to worlds which were worth more to you, that you had already invested a fair amount in. The dead asteroid at the chokepoint isn't worth as much as the desert planet next door, except in terms of position.  But the position is useless if the desert falls.

 

Shield mitigation doesn't peak based on damage. The rate depends on dps taken. But once it hits 65% it stays there. So until the ships are at maximum SM focus fire is inefficient.  Once they are there, it's more efficient TO focus fire. All focus firing from the beginning does is decrease the time until focus firing becomes efficient. So I really don't see the problem.

 

For example,  against the Vasari I had a fleet of LRMs and an Akkan. They had a battleship and a carrier capital,  plus a small escort of LF. By focus firing everything on the capitals, I was able to kill their fleet more quickly than they could kill me. My Akkan was equally levelled, but survived, while both capital ships were lost.

Reply #24 Top

I didn't know that shield mitigation did this. There are some problems with it:

- base = 15%, max = 60%, so the damage reduction improves by 45%, not by 60%. And the difference is probably less, as in 1:1 fights the mitigation probably also increases a little. The actual difference between a 1:1 fight and a 100:1 fight might be about 40% really. But I haven't tested this, I'm not really sure.

- the cap limit means that focus firing is still efficient, because at some point it doesn't matter anymore how many more units you throw at the enemy, the extra damage will increase linearly with the number of ships added to the attack force.

- there's some lag, you've already taken a lot of damage before the mitigation kicks in, which reduces its actual efficiency. How long does it last, how does it behave between waves of bomber attacks? If it decreases over time, and it takes a few seconds for bombers to return, how efficient it the mitigation then?

- since it's damage-only, it punishes heavy hitters like the Titan more than the small ships. Why would 1 Titan get punished as much as say 20 frigates during an attack ...

Perhaps this effect could be increased specially for bombers. After all, bombers can focus-fire on any ship as one huge (almost invulnerable) wave and bombers already have the advantage that they can be rebuilt at 0 real cost and that they are really fast. For a normal fleet, it's a bit harder to coordinate an attack since ships move at different speeds, and also you can wear down the attacking fleet while it is focusing on one ship (which is not really possible in the case of bombers). Or you can (sometimes) run away from the attacking fleet, or at least make it more difficult to get attacked while running away. You can't run away from bombers, they are just too fast.

 

Reply #25 Top

Quoting StormingKiwi, reply 23
As a matter of interest, would you submit  the game file recordings of games vs hard AIs so we get an idea of how you handle it? 
End of StormingKiwi's quote

Yes I will do that I will start a game against 3 of them so it does not take to long and game is as a whole but in the meantime check this out.

It is skilled PvP by one of best players in SINS. As far as I know he doesn't play any more and version of the game is old but strategies are still valid. Keep in mind that MP SINS is far different beast of a game than SINS SP is,  

 

There are a lot of threads about shield mitigation below are just 2 ...

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/145982/page/1/

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/412669/page/1/

 

Quoting StormingKiwi, reply 23
See that's what I have never understood. It stands to reason that you put your Starbases in the economic centre of your empire. You force the opponent to engage them or leave an industrial powerhouse at their back. And most of the upgrades support that (especially orbital command and docking booms). I don't get why you wouldn't invest in your defences so that priority was given to worlds which were worth more to you, that you had already invested a fair amount in. The dead asteroid at the chokepoint isn't worth as much as the desert planet next door, except in terms of position.  But the position is useless if the desert falls.
End of StormingKiwi's quote

You are completely wrong 

Defences that are not used are a vaste of resources and endless sinkhole as if you have 20 planets you cannot defend all of them properly so it is better to defend choke points. AI is stupid he will never bypass that choke point.

Exception are TEC loyal with twin sb and double trade port upgrade which gives 10 credits per second per gravity well. But even then if you do it never invest in anything else but basic SB with twin trade upgrades. Same goes with TR but benefits are smaller. You can also build SB with trade ports in gravity wells to extend trade line. Hope you know what that means...