This is a really great idea. While I still think special abilities would add the most to tactical combat, this is a great delivery vehicle for those abilities and would give a reason to not simply throw around your troops as if they were a dime a dozen.

I say YES to ZOC-Rules! YES to Feats and Promotions! YES to more abilities in general!

New ideas:

* Elemental resistances: - dividing resistance for every 4 elements. It would add some surprise and variety - harder to kill army of yetis with bizzard.

* 3 kinds of damage/defence - thrust, slash and blunt. That may give the solution to "perfect weapon/perfect armor" problem. What use of a spearmen army when skeletons have lots of thrust defence? Few soldiers with hammers would be much useful.

I like the feat idea, I think it is especially suitable for making hero's play differently.   The Adventure Content Pack adds dozens of hero's with unique abilities; being able to  unlock additional ones would means leveling means more than clicking on the stat their abilites are based on.

Also as a way to speed up combat, can we PLEASE get the engine to stop displaying the name of the spell once for each <Game Modifier> tag it includes?  This adds nothing but watching a repetitive animation and slowing down the fun on a per unit basis.  Since you are most likely to actually engage in tactical when dealing with armies containing lots of units on each side, the 5 seconds every time really adds up.

I am actually overjoyed to see this thread and hoped something like this would happen   I have been talking in private chat about some of this sort of thing but was always worried of stepping over a line where it seemed i was saying they could not do their job right   yes evil me

EDIT i meant private messages, not chat.

- no really i was being very nice about it.

anyhoo, i have been working on some compiled notes of some things about elemental - which i had to rush the last few days - its not in a final form, but since so many people are talking about this sort of thing and it adds to what everyone is talking about.

I have to thank Kestral very much for the patience I have been shown the last few messages we have sent back and forth.

My united theory on how to improve elemental

-or-

How I would gut the game and mod it.

(note: this is not as complete as I originally wanted to make it, but I see that some interesting things, similar ideas, are being suggested as well by others on the forum)

Less dependency on the warfare tech. For example ,harvesting could provide access to flail and scythe as weapons.

mining could provide pick ax as a weapon.

Side teching vs Forward teching

There are no options in this, you must tech forward in weapons and armour. There is no incentive to really forego advancing the warfare tech unless you need food/housing tech to keep the machine fed.

(you know, on ridiculous evels with the ai getting some big bonuses compared to the player i don't know why the ai does not stomp all over your little kingdom and snuff it into the ground - it should be out-teching and out marshalling your army, but it does not)

I realize this is a sandbox game but there is too much freedom in the current choices in tech advancement - meaning that given enough time, every faction will have every tech and field the same units and buildings, with only minor variations in the diplomacy allies.

possible solution:

1) introduction of requirements: sort of like age advancement, you need several of each tech branch to continue advancing, with a bonus given when you fulfill all the requirements.

2) more interlinked tech requirements like kingdom requiring bunt and cutting to advance armour tech, but interlink between the various branches so that unlocking a warfare tech + a diplomacy tech will give access to some new civilization tech options.

3) have core tech plus some random ones so that not every game is the same. You don't necessarily need advanced farming beyond harvesting - since you need it to gain access to metal - if you can build better housing, mind you this means houses would need to have an upgrade cost rather than being tied to city level.

4) racial tech combined with faction tech.

Some special options that can only be used by races and factions to improve individuality between players, with several random special techs per game. Racial & Faction tech could not be traded.

__________

Make higher tech buildings more useful.

Basic resources are: materials, arcane research, tech research. More strategic resources are population, gold, mana, metal, crystal, horses.

Example: that building that provides +10 arcane research for excessive requirements is a waste of resources - 10 basic buildings are cheaper and more effective.

______________

Make some factions use resources in unexpected ways.

EX - a darkling or sion faction won't use mounts - they see horses and wargs as a source of food.

Not all factions should have access to every tech, especially the military and magic techs so we can more variety between factions.

_____

On heroes.

some more depth to the adventure tech would be nice.

Perhaps after you discover superior equipment/ superior tools you can unlock some branches off of the hero tree.

ex: priest gear-  unlocks divine heroes and allows you to create some units that have minor spellcasting (level 1 and 2 spells, probably with a cooldown since we don't have personal essence)

higher adventure tech would unlock more options

Based off of  the character creation for sovereigns, a basic lv 0 hero (those that appear before you advance tech) with baseline 10 stats  have 90 character points plus an ability (on average).

If heroes started with 1 skill and gained another every 2 levels and finished with 10 skills they wouls reach level 19.

Character classes:

miner - improves the production abilities of a city

+25% mining metal in city

+20% to material in city

+25% to gold in city

Miner's Strength: provides +2 strength

            upgrades to -> stunning blow - chance to stun with blunt

            upgrades to (cumulative) -> driving blow - move someone back with a mighty blow

administration: faster building

            upgrades to -> improved building skills: adds tile space to town

            upgrades to -> fortified walls: defence bonus

survey: finds a small mine near the town

            upgrade to -> makes the mine bigger

Warlord - a fighter that protects the realms and improves the standing army.

spawn guardian unit

            upgrades to: loyal aide - a better warrior

            up[grades to : Field marshal - has a battle aura

crushing blow

            upgrades to great strength: +2 str

            upgrades to -> critical strike

administration - build buildings faster

            upgrades to -> improved training - trains army faster

            upgrades to -> great garrison - bonus to the number of units defending a city     

improved shield use - bonus armour and dodge

            upgrades -> to vengeance

morale bonus

            upgrades to -> rallying cry - once per battle heals all units and gives a to hit and damage bonus

            upgrades to -> hold the line - once per battle boosts hit points of all units

field banner bonus to all army stats

            upgrades to -> knights banner - bigger bonus

            upgrades to -> Banner of the realms- greater bonus

Warrior - Superiority through force of arms

crushing blow

            upgrades to wide strike: %chance to hit 2 people side by side

            upgrades to crippling strike: -1 to the number of attacks for the rest of the fight (not stackable)

improved armour

warrior strength

surprise attack

regeneration

strength of arms

charge attack

head but % to stun

hero makes it possible to build a unique building in target city:

            marshal yard: a building that boosts population of a city by a small amount to help provide the necessary resources needed for war (gold and people)

level 1 -> 5 people  level 2 -> 10 people level 3 -> 15 people

training yard: building that provides +2 xp per turn to hon-hero units

Merchant -  a mercantile force for procuring what the kingdom requires

+1 gold

            upgrades to: +10% to a city

            upgrades to: improve caravans in other cities

Free economics: trade materials for gold

            upgrades to: free market policies - trade metal for gold

            upgrades to: full economic freedom - trade horses & crystal for gold

buy a building

buy faster troop production

hire mercenaries

buy black market items

discount at store

bribe enemy soldiers

hire raiders to attack other kingdoms with impunity (raiders are neutral and no-one would know who hired them)

Thief - superiority through intelligent actions

more resources after winning a fight

stealth movement

surprise attack - go inv in combat and attack for bonus damage

scouting: +1 to radius

            upgrades to +2 to radius

            upgrades to +3 to radius

lay traps (on world map)

            upgrades to lay snares - more dangerous

            upgrades to lay lethal inconveniences

steal from enemy cities

            upgrades to cattle rustling (don't ask, don't tell)

            upgrades to magic loot (crystals, mana and magic items)

waylay caravan: attack a caravan to steal resources from enemies global pool

sabotage - attempt to destroy buildings in a city

feint: to hit penalty

            upgrades to distraction: action point penalty

            upgrades to dazzle: stunning effect due to indecision

Royalty - My liege, My lord, why do you keep…..

administration

            upgrades to: improved city tax rate

            upgrades to: feudal labour (boost production speed for free) - as opposed to merchant paying money for it

domination

            upgrades to: mind numbing strike - reduced stat penalty on target

            upgrades to: paralyzing strike

prestige bonus

            upgrades to: population bonus

            upgrades to: city tile bonus

raise mob: defensive unit spawned when city attacked

            upgrades to: rouse the peasants: peasants attack invaders in your territory causing damage based on the amount moved per turn

            upgrades to: call for aid: summons supernatural aid from local monsters

forceful shield: adds charisma bonus as a (temporary) dodge bonus in battle

Bard - Supports the development of heroes

Bardic voices - reduces hiring cost

            upgrades to: Heraldry  (as in announcements) - improves hero quality

            upgrades to: Voice of experience - provides 1 xp per turn to heroes in the same city

Charming Voice: soothing voice improves diplomatic standing

            upgrades to Charming diplomacy - 0.25 diplomatic capital per turn

warrior poet: The bard is capable of entering a form of battle frenzy. This is a magical effect created by the bards chanting of heroic stories of warriors past performances in battle. Provides bonus to hit and damage.

            upgrades to: Battle poet: as warrior poet but also boosts other heroes in the fight on his side.

The song of celebration: makes people happy. Happy people work harder. People are attracted to places with happy people - bonus to production speed and prestige in town.

Story of Wisdom: grants a one time bonus to a hero when they meet the bard for the first time. A hero can only get the bonus once from any given bard.

A voice as smooth as crystal: a bard can use his voice to charm the magic out of rock -> provides 0.25 crystal per turn.

Song of festivals: has a chance to have a town festival which increases tax gold production temporarily  and boosts prestige BUT it also lowers production speed during the festival - lasts several turns at a time, random chance to start.

Song of discipline: increases the organization of workers increases materials and mining production but lowers tax rate temporarily.

Assassin - Single target elimination Specialist

Initial attack deal double damage

            upgrades to: Sniper training - initial attack deal double damage with a bow/range attack

poisoned weapons: damage over time not effected by armour

stealth: hero can run around hidden by himself on the world map

            upgrades to group stealth: can lead a small party in hiding on the world map

            upgrades to raiding party: can lead a medium party in hiding on the world map

            upgrades to ravager: can lead a full size party in hiding on the world map

assassinate: a special attack in the world map

            upgrades to a version that gets more lethal

Faster movement

tracking: group led by hero gains a move speed bonus for several turns while it chases target stack

scouting: bonus to sight range

            upgrades to +2 sight range

            upgrades to +3 sight range

dual weapons: damage and dodge bonus due to second weapon

caltrops: throw sharp pointy bits onto the ground to slow movement in an area

If I go to your office can I give you my ideas for Elemental?

Interesting, I was suggesting exactly this in 2009:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/369399

https://forums.elementalgame.com/374597

Hey fellows, MoM fan from way back, the game with V1.11 running rocks.

Only had a rudimentry go thus far but during battle, the ability to be able to switch weapons (hand items only) as an operation during a given heroes turn would be cool. Especially if you have a bowman who is ambushed and stuck with a bow, then you are dead. But if you could dig in your inventory for a long sword as one of your turns at least the hero has a chance of defending.

Good ideas have a habit of coming back if they aren't adopted the first time.

Best regards,
Steven.

Well I already posted a thread where I placed some scan from the Romance of the 3 kingdom XI rule book. You can clearly see the various tactics and weapon ry that can be used in battle. Here is the thread link:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/398507

I remember that there was some trouble seeing the pictures and I think there were deleted from the old server. If you want, I can resubmit them again on my new server and link them again in this thread.

At least for now, you can see the discussion.

That said my top four list for improving tactical combat would be;

1. Special Abilities

2. Unit Commands based on Training - i.e. trained veterans could form a spear wall (protects against a charge) or a shield wall (protects against arrows), untrained peasants could not. Trained veterans would have a chance to make the first blow when attacked, untrained peasants would not.

3. Heros affects the tactics available to units they command. A trained warrior hero might know 9 tacticals commands to give the units under his command, whereas a princess hero or merchant hero might be able to give 3 tactical commands to the units in his army.

Example: Hero Warrior learns 1 new battle tactic at every level, Hero Adventurer learns 1 new battle tactic every 2 levels, Hero Merchant learns 1 new battle tactic every 3 levels. Units Under their command can be ordered to execute the battle tactics known by their commanding hero if their training & experience gives them access to this tactic.

4. Fog of war, line of sight and terrain effects  on a larger map - you can't attack what you can't see; i.e. units on far side of forest can't be seen or attacked. Elevated terrain aids defense and improves line of sight, marsh terrain penalizes movement, etc. Units behind a hill can't be seen. Larger maps provide more options for manuevering troops. Units behind a city wall protected from melee attacks unless city wall is destroyed. Maximum line of sight is x titles and is blocked by forest, walls and hills.

I think people should make a clear distinction in special abilities. There are

Passive abilities: These are abilities that are computed and transparent to the user. For example, My unit makes fire damage and your unit has fire weakness, I make more damage, but I do not have to manually activate the ability.

Active abilities: This means that the unit can take a different action than move or attack. This kind of abilities requires a decision from the player.

Personally, I would make equipment, enchantment and other stuff give passive abilities.

While I would make 1 heroes/champion command a battle, and that hero/champion would have a series of skill/strategies which will be the active abilities he can perform with his armies.

Defining passive abilities this way is almost indistinguishable from the concept of damage types and resistances. In fact, this type of passive ability might as well not even be defined as an ability but as a set of unit statistics. In fact, one could say that WoM already supports this type of passive ability in so much as this is how equipment already defines the bonuses given to a unit. Yet, there is another definition of a passive ability, which I believe could be interesting. This alternate definition would be that passive abilities are abilities which are triggered instead of used. For instance, one could have a flame armor spell which might add a passive flame effect to the target wherein any unit attacking this targeted unit would take a certain amount of fire damage. Another such ability could be an enraging ability, such that the enraged unit gains a limited attack power boost as it is hit in combat. These types of abilities would be passively applied without the significant player interaction. In general, the first type of passive abilities would have the same limiting factors as damage types/resistances where they would simply add a well defined set of mechanisms with which the player can simply min max in his tactical decision making. The second type could be used for any number of different purposes including the first, while allowing spells and active abilities to be create which can instantly alter the dynamics of combat depending on player choice.

You're right. For example, some other strategy games (which won't be named here) have a horrible system in which (very broadly speaking) spearmen gain a bonus against cavalry, cavalry against non-spearmen infantry, and armored infantry against spearmen. There was a lot of min-maxing going on with this game, and it was horribly bothersome to have to worry about army composition in the first place.

As I have said previously, it is possible to have this type of mechanism to confer some natural advantage, but I always feel that it is better if this advantage can be given directly to the player to control.

The problem with ZoC is it tends to promote a strategy of having most of the battle decided by the back line (who can attack with impunity) while the front line is simply there as a speed bump.

 There are other ways to achieve a similar thing. Making attacking more advantageous for example, so the player has to decide between optimising their attack against adjacent units or trying to bypass them (and thus allowing the opponent to optimise their attacks against the bypassing unit). Advantageous doesn't necessarily mean a flat bonus either, it could be something as simple as applying the results of the attack prior to allowing the defender to counter attack, which Elemental already does, meaning the attacker gains the benefit of potentially reducing the return damage. Of course if you're adding special abilities you have a host of options like special attacks and the like.

For those interested about the R3K info scan, I have re-uploaded the pictures here:

http://lariennalibrary.com/extern/forum/R3K11Scan/

Just click on each file to see each picture.

In order to speed up the game play, you do not necessarily need to move units on individual square to actually make comabt interesting. You could simply have a front, back and reserve row. With maybe even flanks. And then make front unit automatically attack front unit, back unit can attack ennemy front unit and reserve units can replace units on the battlefield. Some abilities would allow to breach though the line. You could use Ogre Battle combat as a source of inspiration too.

This way, it will accelerate the battles by preventing the player to perform many small movements while still giving a good opportunity of tactics and special ability to use.

I think that if the the new initiative system works the way people think it does in Lord Xia's 1.2-1.3 news thread then we will have side stepped ZoC completely,at least in E:FE. 

I just realized that I have been posting the same ideas quite recently in fact, e.g.

https://forums.elementalgame.com/400669

Maybe you folks could give some of the older threads with what might be good ideas another look?

Lots of good suggestions, but the magic system also needs some love, otherwise the game just becomes a variation of tournament chess. The game is called War of Magic after all. Everyone seems to have forgotten that. Not everyone wants hardcore. They should also talk to Murteas who really understands the magic side.

If "only" the game had a good Battle Chess program running the AI. Imagine the Tactical map is loading, the AI calculates your "pieces" values vs its own and then simply goes about destroying your BEST piece and does so using all available units, tactics (positioning) and strategies (Magic) to achieve that goal. Just like Battle Chess. The Tact Maps are just 2X sized Chess boards as is, so no worries there. Add in an Intelligent use of Magic and Tactical Battle gets better by 1000%.

As for Special abilities, the more the merrier for sure, but if you want to add things like Pikes to stop charges (which do not exist in WoM) you will need to give those weapons the "REACH" ability. Currently, a mounted unit charges (ok moves) to the square in front of it target, stops and attacks. How does a Pike affect the unit without the ability to "REACH" into the adjacent square? It doesn't.

I think it is a sad thing that everyone now speaks of EF as the savior of Elemental. It best be $%^#$ spectacular given it's near 4.5 year build cycle...

Well, I think it's safe to say that Elemental: War of Magic is never going to fixed enough to live up to expectations.  That's fixed and unchangeable.  But there a lot of good things coming through about FE, including not having a retail release so they are not chained to a certain date.  And I think that the community *and* Stardock itself will be working together to make sure that when it is released, it is fantastic.  Fingers crossed. <grin>

Best regards,
Steven.

I never played battle chess, but I do not really like the idea of chess for elemental game. It's not a bad idea, but it feels cheap. Take another solid game and place in your game. The second reason is that chess is a game of opening, protection and cover. Only the pawns and knights are limited in movement distance, all other pieces have unlimited movement. Again, I don't think that would fit for elemental.

But I don't say that a chess like game, with cool units and special abilities would not be interesting.