3 Halcyon Carriers with 13 Fighters Vs 3 Skintra Carriers with 30 Bombers, who wins?

Agree 100% here.Tec has the same problem.Kols dont work I tried em.You might have a chance with 3 or 4 sovas but thats only if you are on the defense with repair or he will pick them off.Vasari are so op its crazy.Once they get subs you might as well forget it as anyother race.There is no counter whatsoever.Divide your forces you say?Ya while your moving them he is killin you and disabling at least 50% of your fleet.Maybe layin down mines.Vasari can kill 100 lrf with nothing but subs and mines faster then anything except a red button sb.

Phase missile make skirantras rediculous.A 10% increase in complete shield mitigation is much more damage then a mitigated 10% damage.

Basically I felt like skirantra could have used a slight buff to scramble but Its like they didnt test this change at all.

I tried Kols back in the last patch against the damn Halcyons.  Got 3 of them wiith several levels of flak burst to try and defend against 2 Halcyons.  Manually cast the flak bursts, staggering them, waiting for the optimum time to do it each time.  No, it didn't work, so you can bet it won't work against vasari bombers.

I must say, I rather enjoy the shoe being on the other foot.  Now all the Advent players who loved pushing around Vasari with their OP bullshit are getting a taste of their own medicine.  How does it feel?  Revenge is always a dish best served cold.

That was... somewhat of a joke, ha ha.  Really, I don't wish to see the game imbalanced.  The good news is, besides the potential issue with the Skirantra, I think the game has moved more towards a state of balance than it was before.

I don't really see the issue with phase missles, though.  They have been there since the game released.  They have been a core vasari tech from day one - just like Advent gets shields and culture, just like TEC gets armor and hull and eco.  Vasari are saddled with high-supply units, so phase missles and other techs are how they overcome that.

I think your better approach here would be to go offensive and fight bomber with bomber.  The thing is, Halcyons can push the enemy bombers away to buy them time.  The trick is to get your 13 bombers to whittle away the enemy before you run out of antimatter for push.  Risky strategy that is always subject to micro and tactics, however.

I really think the new Skirantra is just indicative of the problem that's existed since 1.18:  carrier capital ships are just too powerful in the early game, and the only realistic counter to a carrier cap is another carrier cap.

Actually, other capitals are just too underbuffed or weak.

At any rate, here is what I would try.  Instead of trying to match his cap spam with your own cap spam, why not hit him with a frig spam intstead?  How many disciples could you make for the cost of 3 or 4 caps?  At the end of the day, nothing can beat disciples except mass lrm.  I saw Advent players last patch that would build hundreds.  Heavy cruiser spam would just get annihilated by disciples - I tried it.  That guy "White" who plays online just clouds the skies with discples.

Of course I undertand that this is theorycraft at the moment, might not work in practice.  But it's the first thing I'd try.

The problem is that LRF spam is easy for Vasari to pull off, and as soon as they catch wind of what you're doing they're spamming assailants to counter you.

The problem with that is, the Kol is an abject failure. It's completely worthless, and no ship in the game is nearly as bad as it. Even trying to use a Kol against anything is like shooting yourself in the leg.

After this topic, I do think SB needs a slight nerf. Advent fighters are really weak (1 DPS per Fighter), but it's getting ridiculous that there aren't any real options other than pure flak and LF.

This wasn't possible to do last patch because of a seeker counterspam to your assailant spam.  So the question is, is a seeker spam viable this patch, or did the nerf totally kill that option?  I know I still saw some seeker spam about a week after the new patch, but I can't play online right now because my connection has way too much lag at the moment, so I don't know.

The problem with diciple spam is that, once the enemy knows you have them, he will quickly counter it,

 

The thing I dont like about this strat is that he can outnumber in the air (3 skintra with 30 bombers wth!?!?!) and as well as heal his units on the gorund. I could go for the bomber strat to counter his, but lets say this. If I have roughly enough anti matter for 7 pushes from my 3 Halcyon Carriers + 13 bombers, once I push the whole wave of bombers back (lets say 90% of his bomber strike craft has been pushed), then the next attack wave of bombers will be so split up that they no longer come in huge bulks...........I can wait for them to reform, but once that happens, i might lose a capital ship.

As the bombers of Vasair have 140hp, and early Halcyon Carriers can only hurt them by 20, its tricky to win the battle. The fact is Advent is the only race which might be able to hold them off for a little whole, TEC on the otherhand, unless they have a level 6 kol with a level 3 flakburst and fighters, they dont stand a chance.

Hawk stop spreading disinformation:

3 LV2 skintras can spamm 9+3x3 that gives 18 bombers and while constantly spamming them they cant heal

It can be easly beatten early game .

yeah but as soon as they lvl to 3 they can easily get up to 35 bombers.

i agree this is a balance problem and even though i am a vas player i find myself smurfing as advent or playing TEC more because im tired of the same vas strat.

[_]-Uber

In one game i gad egg and 5 skintras all upgraded to lvl 4 with 2 repair and 2 bomber upgrades on skintras.

With no other fleet i wiped TEC fleet (i admit that my opponent  was medicore player) of just above 50 ships with loosing only one carrier.

I used to play Advent but since patch I play either vas or TEC. Vas because of cap cariers (i usually go for 4 skintras before building any cruisers) and as TEC because envoys. Advent sucks as it is. Their envoy is a joke (see my post about envoys) and their fleet is just average. 

Skintras are OP. Yes they can be countered but they can be by only skilled players and a lot of micro(Clan players-not all of them and very few other). The rest is cannon feeder.

Tec are good for embargo rush and if u can get econ developed and envoys out then u can have even match with vasari. Othervise is a tough choice.

 

qaur ur a noob, why would I make something up like that? I saw it with my own eyes.

 

Im telling u as a noob, its impossible. Its possible with 2x lv3 skintra and 1x lv5

 

Sometimes fear can double the amount of bombers. Control your fear. Fight the deamon. Adapt and counter.

There is always a weeknes , a flaw , a way to dicctate the place and time.

Adapt or die

But this fixes nothing; it leaves this ability decent in the early game but utterly worthless in the late game.  The very reason it became useful this version was because it was actually possible to have the bomber squads build up like the Sova can build up missile batteries.

The problem right now, as I've already stated, is that only counter to strike craft is more strike craft.  Early on, this lets carrier capital ships rule supreme, because carrier cruisers are as yet not cost-efficient enough to compete.  The problem right now is that there is no real "counter" to early game carrier cap spam except your own carrier cap spam, so this really only serves to magnify slight differences between the Sova, Halcyon, and Skirantra.

Later on, it's possible to overwhelm carrier capital ship strike craft with the sheer number of cruisers, and since cruisers are much easier to counter it works quite well.  Early on, however, there is no great way to deal with carrier capital ships and you're stuck trying to outmuscle them by sheer force.

I'm not sure about this at all- you want to compare bombers to the Sova's batteries, and then claim that bombers won't be valuable at all later on if it is revised?

I prefer the other thread to this one,  a player's thread should have replays rather than garbled recounts.  The 'buff Skirantra' replay showed a pair of Skirantras being employed very poorly, but the ship was buffed anyway.  1.01/1.05/1.19 would have been a better patch without the Skirantra buff- is it even bugged, so that it can be used in storms?

However.. from the other thread each L3 Sova battery does about 23 dps and the batteries can't move and have light type armour.. each L3 scramble bombers  3 squad flight has decent armour, phase missiles, extreme mobility and even the base dps is what, over 50...?  To have them out at the same rate seems very much in the Skirantra's favour, so if the third level of the Skirantra would be useless at 2/3 the rate, what does that make the current version of batteries in the later game?

I'm not complaining about batteries, they are what they are, stronger earlier, poorer later.  None of the carriers neded improving with any priority last time, there was never any solid evidence that the Skirantra was too weak.  If the Skirantra absolutely must have some extra advantage then the suggestion for a longer cooldown to the 1.01 version seems reasonable.  However, reverting the buff entirely might be good, as well.  Scramble bombers has been buffed again and again and again- it was already a four star ability in v1.18... The Skirantra also has an area heal for the late game, what does the Sova have?   

micro managing ur fighters and focus firing any bomber squad manually sounds better rather than letting ur fighters in AIs control and randomly firing that vasari bombers

I'll agree with this.  Although I would say scramble was a weak ability, I withdrew it from my "priority buff request" list after sufficient experience with the new and improved carriers.

I think the "sweet spot" is somewhere between what we have now and what we had in the previous version, but frankly there are many other abilities that should have had much higher priority than this one (GRG, PMS, Guidance, Animosity, to name a few). 

I've found, particularly when you're comboing with TK push, that fighters will chase after distant bombers and spend way too much of their time moving around, to the point at which they often deal more damage if left to hold ground and just planted in a good spot.

I have a bone to pick with this.  You say the Skirantras were being employed very poorly, but I say I pretty much had no choice but to deploy them how I deployed them, given my strategic situation, and given what was "common knowledge" about the Skirantra then.

Scramble bombers wasn't worth a damn, and heal was why you built Skirantras - no other reason.  So if I've pumped 2 Skirantras early game in a desperate attempt to counter what might be a dual Halcyon rush, and in comes a Sova to bomb my 'roid, and all I have at that point is my two Skirantras with heal, one would (SHOULD) expect that those two Skirantras, alternating their heals, would be able to tank the dps from a single Sova.  The two Skirantras couldn't.

The fact is, the Skirantra was the weakest of the 3 carrier caps last patch.  While there might be a few people who disagree, I think the majority agree with me on that.  I'm on firm ground that scramble bombers has been known from day one to have been one of the most useless abilities in the game, if not the most useless ability.  Conversely, ADA, TP, energy aura - these are great abilities, 2 of which are passive.

BlackHawk blamed me in another thread for agitating for a buffed scramble bombers, but I don't think you can find anywhere in this entire forum where I said scramble bombers should be buffed (even though it needed it).  Actually, my idea was that the Skirantra's HEAL should be buffed.  I saw no reason why the damage dealing special ability of 1 Sova should be able to wipe the map with the damage tanking special ability of 2 Skirantras - that's ridiculous.  I never thought of buffing scramble bombers because the ability was so poor in my mind that it had been "written off" so to speak.

The Devs instead surprised me with a buffed scramble bombers.  I'm fine with that.  If it needs to be toned down a little bit, fine, but don't tone it down too much or it just goes back to being a crappy ability again, and the Skirantra goes back to being the weakest carrier cap, which is a handicap.

Thing is, the Devs decided that carrier caps should play a prominent role.  So, if one carrier cap ain't doing the job, it is a critical handicap, because the other carrier caps ARE doing their job.  If you have a weak carrier cap, how else are you gonna counter other races' carriers?  That's the discussion that's going on right now, in fact.  And it's the same discussions that were going on last patch, but it was "How do I counter Halcyons or Sovas with a Skirantra?"

That's why the devs buffed the Skirantra.  Playing Vasari was hell last patch.  How soon everyone forgets.

I cant deny all those crying of lum spammers and hellcion spammers after last update  gives me so much joi.

After 6 months of beeing treatten with xxxxx lums and listen bla bla im the best cause i can spam  now u r finaly in the position when spamm isnt enough. Hurt to think? your problem. Everything can be countered.

If u cant, cry me a river

 

PS 3xSkintra can be countered easly and i can even give u a tip by PM if u  make a statement on forum, Sunny, that u were a maindless lumspammer

 

Quar I still play advent now mate, does that not show that I just didnt play advent becuase they were bugged? My first race was tec, then advent, and I play 90% of my games advent.

even when advent were bugged, I still played with other races, sometimes tec.

 

Did I? If I did say that, I apologise agent.

 

 

Agent, though they aren't tanks, two Skirantras, without using scramble bombers, can defeat one Sova of equal level.  Your tactical situation was different- one of your Skirantras had been damaged and the other was brand-new, plus your opponent had many other frigates and a higher-level cap.

However your main problem was that you vastly overvalued a roid.  You could simply have stayed outside the range of the missile batteries with your Skirantras.  A roid only costs the equivalent of a couple of frigates and they're very easy to rebuild- the priority was to keep your ships healthy and to prevent him taking the roid, not to stop it being bombed.  You hadn't any factories there.

However, you were advocating a heal buff, rather than any other buff.  Area heal is a fantastic ability, but it isn't for single-ship heal.  The least-favoured ability on the Skirantra remains the obscure aura, which might have got the buff, if any buff were needed.

With the carrier caps getting more squadrons, how about making them pay antimatter to rebuild them? Having anything absolutely free just invites spams and reduces skill.  That might give the other caps a chance again, if only at the cost of making the caps less powerful.  I like strong caps- but I hate free strikecraft. 

As I recall you played Advent all the time.

The problem with that, though, is the Sova (And Skirantra, to a lesser extent), would be weakened considerably. Missile Batteries and Embargo are both fairly antimatter-intensive, and the AM change would make Rapid Manufacturing even worse in battle. Sure, SC are produced instantly, but then the Sova's AM would likey be completely depleted. And the Skirantra would also be weakened, because of the high costs of Repair Cloud.

I'm completely fine with the Halcyon and Sova currently. It's Skirantras with Scramble Bombers that's the problem- and the underpowered caps like the Dunov and Rapture. And completely worthless ones like the Kol.

No apology necessary.

Actually, my Skirantra wasn't damaged, it was his Sova that entered the battle with 75% of it's hull, and after both Skirantras went down the Sova had something like 33% hull.

Hey Astax.  You and I played a 2v2 against 2 DTs, and I believe I used Advent that game.  But at least 90% of the time I choose Vasari.