Progenitor shield restore overpowered on self.

Just a suggestion here, but build some frigates? Shield restore is OK, but It is by no means the best ability of Progenitor. It's a distant 3rd.

You're pitting two low level support capital ships against one high level support cap ship that happens to have a heal. If you cant outdamage a 375 heal every 20 seconds and two carriers are your only method of damage, you have already lost. I bet if you take a single level 3 kol and pit it up against that progenitor it tears the progenitor to peices.

You need to use caps in their forte. If you want to be a cap buster, I suggest Kol battleships.

actually Runomoro sova with 3 bombers outdamages a khol.
Sova with missile battery outdamages marza.

that 375 shield heal is turned into a 800 shield heal due to damage mitigation ramp.
Lets not even take into account that Capital ship battles untill mass missile frigates are spammed take up to 5 mintues.



Sova aint support ships they are by far the most powerful COMBAT ships damage wise untill level 6 abilities kick in.

Unlike other races they get damage improved rather then simply more ships. This makes them bypass armor with far greater ease then any other races bombers.

argue it anyway you want by the end of the game where I had lost because of it I had done 5 times the damage to shields then any other player in game in the graph charts.

Evidently, you are incorrect, as people using Marzas and Kols don't have such problems. You can go on losing if you like jsut to disagree though

well obviously im incorrect despite the fact its easily checkable by everyone....

and hey
Even if we look at it the other way

of course 1 support cruiser should be capable of defeating 2 support cruisers

wait...............

Given that the game is balanced as fleets and not individuals, unbalanced 1v2's aren't out of the question or even illogical. Balance for balance, how would the progenitor have done against a couple of support cruisers that drain anti-matter or take out specials? Would you consider it fair that a cap ship can be taken out by an equivalent( or less depending on the player) value of support ships and DPS? In your own scenario, drop the second cap and add just two Hoshiko's with demo bots; replace a Sova with a Dunov;both caps with an equal level Kol; or a Sova with an Ion bolt Akkan. There are so many different scenario's where this becomes a sure kill on the Progenitor that it's hard to say it's imbalanced.

As a rule for survival, Cap ships are not combat vessels but incredibly valuable support ships. If you treat them as actual combat vessels you'll find they tend to get eaten alive. While the combat value is not negligible, the full power of cap ships comes from how their abilities help the fleet/mission as a whole.

Using your logic for balance.

lets ask a question.

should a support ability that is FLEET orinitated defeat abilities that are target specific and do so outnumbered by those abilities 2-1

Missile batteries and bombers are designed for KILLING indervidual targets.

the Shield restore is surposed to help a fleet.

In short, yes and I just explained and gave examples why. Talking about the potentially overpowered malice- brilliance combo, guardians and illums are one thing, in this case you are talking about a bad match-up in a game that is balanced on a macro, not micro level. Because of the myriad ways this could have gone against the Progenitor with some relatively minor(and cheaper) differences, it's hard to argue it's imbalanced at all.

Edit: I'm not saying it's not imbalanced,I'm saying it's a tough argument to make.

your basing balance on the macro level.. lets base it on opions.

getting 2 cap ships early game is no small feat, your saying it should fail outright agasint a specific capship build without it needing any support whatsoever?.


well sure, one less build.
Lets all just spam ravishers LRMS and Illums becasue everything else loses to them.

Something you don't mention as well is that the Progenitor would have 2 strikecraft points at level 5. If your opponent had fighters (and unless he was really bad he would), the bombers effectiveness would be really reduced. And i've found that of the 3 colony ships, the Progenitor is the most effective and damaging in fleet combat damage wise out of all 3, but the carrier's generally are not as effective themselves as other combat cap ships. Plus, the way the Progenitor's weapons are arrayed can allow for good positioning to let all the weapon banks fire at the same time, but the Sova's will usually go into a broadside firing arc, limiting them to a single side bank of fire vs the Progenitor's 5.

That's not at all what I'm saying. You raise two points and I'll address them separately.

1. Getting 2 caps early game is no small feat but then, you were facing a level 5 Progenitor, also no small feat. The Progenitor is the best defensive ship in game, period. Not only does it have an impressive early defense but it also has well arrayed weapons banks for taking on enemies on either side. Combine those features with a compliment of fighters and you essentially have a carrier killer since all the carriers in game are offensively weak without their strike craft. You keep mentioning cap ships as though they are a miracle end all unit but they aren't. They are a high value fleet support unit dependent on situation and fleet make-up. Note that the Progenitor only has a single offensive ability that is near useless when it's on it's own. Had you a Dunov or even an Ion Bolt Akkan instead of another carrier, I'd all but guarantee you would have won handily; Had you a single level 6 Kol in a reverse situation you'd have been the overpowered one.

2. Balance shouldn't count opinions( I assume that's what opions means) balance should count the scope intended. This is a fleet level game, not a unit level. Sure, your caps are powerful but without fleet support they can end up in some truly horrible situations. Two flak ships + DPS completely neuter a carrier. A level 5 Progenitor with a level 6 Radiance is an exponentially more dangerous combo ( bordering on game breaking) than either on its own vs a fleet but even that combo can be a loser vs. a single Kol, and a Skirantra can cause all sort of headaches with its phase missiles and additional bombers.A gravity Warhead equipped Evacuator is essentially a no-retreat button for its opposing fleet. A couple of capitals have abilities that can quickly turn any two on one into an unbalanced one on one where neither opponent stands a chance. On a micro level all these abilities can be grossly imbalanced but macro, most are just fine and fit nicely into the game.

If you are going to comment on game balance, even if it is just an opinion, it has to be within the scope and design of the game. You simply can't talk unit v. unit balance when the game is fleet vs. fleet.

Why would anybody want to go for two early cap ships and lack frigates? Doesnt make any sense at all ...

GoJoe2400

1.A sova carrier with upgraded bombers can kill 2 flaks with them without losing a squad.
People say the armor upgrade sucks, but when 3 sova carriers can force the enemy to build 20 flak just to destroy your bombers I would say there worth it.

2.opions was ment to be options.

3.He didnt have any fighter squads at all, so whats worse is he was either a nob or had recalled them when he was fighting pirates and forget to relaunch.



Lets list what happend step by step.

I just into a system and he blows up one of the last pirates over on his end, my carriers launch there bombers and I tell them to hold position.

It moses on over with 7 bombers attacking it restoreing its shields and attacks my carriers.

the battle lasts long enough that each carrier has 3 missile batteries out, I pull one carrier back because its almost dead and repair and leave my other carrier fighting till its shields are down.

end result is he TOOK no hull damage.

a much famed KHOL would have lost its shields and taken hulldamage before it ever even made it into range with my carriers.

Your also forgetting he didnt have ANY upgrades while I had the first tier of upgrades for health/armor/lasers.

I take it you're assuming there were no upgrades based on the stats you could see. Allowing that, when you jumped in he was already in battle so his shield mit was already high. Since he was fighting pirates,I assume it was his world under his culture and Advent have a mit bonus in culture. Advent,the Progenitor especially, can be darn near invincible without proper support. At level 5, the bonuses to armor/shield power and presumably a level 3 shield restore pretty much make a Progenitor a defensive juggernaut capable of whittling significantly larger fleets down, stalling a superior force until back-up arrives or slow walking a foe to death in any scenario where it's not grossly out-gunned (fleet vs 1) or where the opponent doesn't have support/disabling abilities(or phase missiles). You had no support abilities and tried to use an admittedly potent offense vs. a near perfect defense. You lost because you had no fleet variation and no support.

As for the Kol, maybe you would have gotten past the shields but a level 6 Kol does far more damage, has flak burst, a potent shield and finest hour is just beastly. Even at level 5, the shield and flak alone would have given you headaches with your fleet makeup.

Ah, options! Something told me opinions was wrong; I apologize for my response to opinions as it isn't what you meant. I agree, options and variety are good but in this case you didn't really exercise them. I listed off plenty of valid options that would have made the scenario wildly different, you just had one that didn't work. Your two caps didn't lose to a cap with no support, your two caps lost to a ship that is support, heavy defense at that. Had you exercised the option to bring a support cap instead of another carrier or even some frigates, you likely would have won. LRM/HC spam exist because nothing else is cost effective or viable and thus is a genuine balance issue. In this scenario there were plenty of other valid options that would have worked but that weren't exercised. Not only are cap ships not "super units" in this game, they all have different combat aspects that can make one cap as good as 2-3 when the situation allows-- you ran into one.

No you just proved he doesnt need to build 20 flak, he just built 1 Motehrship lol.

Right..

I suggest everyone goes and times how long it takes a levle 1 khol to kill every type of pirate foundin a starsystem.

Then go time how long it takes a level 1 Progeniator to do the same.


Then tell me WHICH is spose to be the warship and WHICH is spose to be the colonly ship.

2 cents - Kol is an Offensive Tank, designed to wade into an enemy fleet, firing on all sides while absorbing huge amount of punishment. It's not meant to kill one enemy at a time.

If by warship you mean frontal damage-dealer then you are probably looking for the Marza Dreadnought, which would clean out your militia much faster than either a battleship or a colony support cap and suffer more for it, too. Two lvl 3 Marzas using DoT would have stood a better chance of whittling down your lone Progenitor nemesis, as would any of the combos mentioned above.

Not to be harsh, Drath, but you might be complaining because your two sticks didn't manage to cleanly cut a piece of paper in half. It's not the game's fault you didn't make scissors.

Ke5trel

I would point OUT that a khol loses to 2 carriers with bombers.
I would also point OUT that BOMBERS are an anti heavy ship weapon and they work best agasint surprise surprise CAPSHIPS.
SO tell me then why they were sticks instead of a sharp razorblade.

So the question then is
Why is a colonly ship capable of outdamging a bloody battleship
You say because the battleship is ACTUALLY a tank
Why is it that the TANK would have lost to the same set up instead of winning the fight with no hulldamage....

WEll apparently the Progenitor is a dfensive ship. apparently defensive means unkillable by ANTI capship weaponry(bombers)?

well great
its a defensive ship witch can kill pirates quicker then a khol and then can also colonise worlds its just freed while regenerating its shields as it jumps to the next system to rise and repeat.

Meanwhile the TEC oppoent USING ANY CAPSHIP has to pullhis ship back and research repair yards to regenerate it and if its not the Akkan they also need a colonly ship.

So lets look at steps
Advent
Build capyard
Build Progenitor
build a few frigates to help.
Jump to Terran System.
Fight mass pritate fleet
Shield restore constantly ensureing you lose few or none of your frigates
Colonise planet
Move to next system
regenerate shields along the way

Tec
Build capyard
Build Akkan
build a few frigates to help.
Jump to terran system.
Fight Mass pirate fleet.
Fight till ships are damaged and pull each frigate back out of combat
Colonise planet.
Build Military Station
Research Hullrepair
Build repairyard
wait for repairs
Jump to next system.

SO it costs Tec for the SAME effectiveness 2000 more income.. early game....
well bugger me.....
Its either
a.Its overpowered
b.Other advent capships are underpowered
c.Other race capitals are underpowered

A seems the most logical choice.

The Progenitor's is simply more powerful when the is less dps in a battle. On level 3 it may heal almost as much as your 2 low level sovas may do. If there would be a larger fleet on both sides, the heal would be so much less significant if focus fired.

Also, giving a match up that is realy realy rare in the game cause there are fleets, will not prova any imbalance. Also you completely ignored that there are differences in economy.



d. dont colonize terran planets if you dont have the ships to do it. instead get a chain of asteriods and build a trade net and get 10000 more income.


Its calles a strategy game because not every strategy works.

@ DrathKar,

Hmm, you edited before I could reply, but most of my points stand, so:

Let's put this into a different framework and see if it makes more sense. Have you ever played World of Warcraft or an equivalent rogue-like? We are looking at class issues you would find familiar if you had. The Kol is a defense-oriented warrior (good at absorbing punishment and dealing just enough damage to hold aggro). The Sovas are offense-oriented hunters (good at sniping from a distance and laying traps). The Progenitor is a paladin (heals, buffs, and debuffs) and Marzas would be rogues (strong direct damage and DoT).

Your paladin is going to outlast any number of casting DPS classes in close-combat because his skills are aimed at healing, mitigating direct damage from enemies, and buffing direct damage from his allies. That's what he does, it's how his skillset is designed. He doesn't deal alot of damage himself, but he doesn't need to, because he can keep healing himself.

So if you send two hunters into melee with a paladin you are going to get beaten, regardless of how much damage they are dealing. The paladin is healing himself and the hunters are not. If your hunters kited the pally like they were designed to, keeping out of close-comabt range, then eventually they would win because the pally has neglible long-distance attacks. If you don't like sniping then you could replace one of your hunters with any of the alternatives suggested above, who would either be able to debuff the paladin (Dunov EMP), stun him (Akkan Ion Bolt), or deliver more damage than he can mitigate (Marza DoT).

It's entirely possible the warrior (Kol) would lose to the hunters if they kited properly, because again the warrior can absorb alot of damage but it can't heal itself and it also has negligible long-range attacks.

And yes the Progenitor is a great support cap, with three useful abilities. That's why you see it so often with Advent play. As emphasized above though, its function is support. Against *effective* attacks it's pretty helpless solo, no matter the level. I'd 1 v 1 a Progenitor with an equivalent-level Marza any time. It isn't overpowered and other caps, with a few exceptions, aren't underpowered. They are all *differently* powered, because they all belong in different classes. If your two Akkans lost to one Progenitor, or your two Sovas lost to one Halcyon, then maybe you would have a point.

I'm not really sure what your build orders prove, weren't we looking at capship vs. capships in isolation?

I'm not trying to get you riled up by debating, it's just that you have to consider every aspect of play before you claim something is unbalanced. You have some really good pointers in this thread for countering lone Progenitors Shield Restoration in future matchups, I suggest you try some of them.

Right you guys
GO look at bombers
LOOK AT WHAT THE TOOLTIP SAYS
STRONG AGASINT BUILDINGS AND CAPSHIPS.

you people are aruging that a SUpportship SHOULD defeat 2 capship killers.
BTW I just realised one of my carriers had to be level 5 because it had 4 bombers( I thought they got 4 at level 4)
Which means one was equal level to the Progenitor.. which means it defeated 2 caps one of equal level and did so without using any of its own fighters/bombers.

Lets REview
2 CAPSHIP killing CAPS couldnt defeat a SINGLE Suppoprt shgip that didnt even build any of its own bombers/fighters- It wasnt used to its full ability......

IM sick of arguing with people who dont know what they are talking about.

shield restore is overpowered and its not just this ship.

4 level 3 dunlovs can defeat 30 assailants 12 transportars 7 overseers a Devastator(L1) a,Skirantra(L1),evacuator(L4)

I have a replay to prove it, I didnt kill any of this guys caps because he withdrew them each time they almost died but I destroyed ALOT of the smaller ships and didnt lose a single dunlov my total micro was focus fireing and withdrawing a single dunlov and then jumping it immedately back into battle.

The guy got abussive and cried foul, and I have to agree with him.

Its the whole DAMAGE mitigation thing, shield restore ends up being to powerful.
A ship with its shields restoreds should have its damage mitigation droped back down to 15%.

You had me at "IM sick of arguing with people who dont know what they are talking about."

But seriously-

Why don't we agree to disagree on this one. Meantime if you ever happen to see me online we can play a friendly game where I promise to use no shield restoration whatsoever, against however many Progenitors or Dunovs you make.

By the way, I'd be interested in seeing that replay with the 4 Dunovs.

Peace

Which means that the unit will do the highest damage that it's capable of to buildings and cap. ships. It does 'not' mean that a handful of them guarantees you a victory in the scenario you're describing.

How many bombers did you lose in the original fight? If a lone Progenitor was the only thing in the area, I'm going to guess 'none'.

Did you simply park the two carriers in front of the mothership or did you keep them moving while your bombers did their thing, greatly reducing the damage you took? The resources you used to build two bloody cap ships that early in the game - could they have been better used on either a different cap ship or an appropriate supporting fleet?

Nobody's taking this circumstancial 'evidence' seriously because there are a pile of factors being left out and the situation itself is unlikely, at best. Who knows... perhaps the ability is overpowered in this one ridiculous situation but given all of the other options available to you at that point in the game, there's a reason you're getting a collective sigh of 'so what?'

This thread is hilarious, you must ba a total noob or you missed a huge clue like his ship being 5 levels higher than yours. You probably parked your ships so that his batteries hit both of them, using 100% of his firepower, in which case once again it's your fault. If both your ships were on one side of his, he can only use half his firepower, just like a Sova.

Astax his ship wasnt 5 levels higher then mine

So who is the noob?