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Are all these balance claims legit?

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Are all these balance claims legit?

from Sins Forums

  Okay, I'll admit this game has had some trouble in the past, but it seems like now there's always something people are complaining about.  I'm wondering if maybe most of the so called balance issues are just coming up from people who are losing games because they THINK the game should work their way.  Take jumping Starbases for example.  They probably do need a little tweaking, I haven't actually played with them so I don't know.  But realistically, they are a good answer to making the vasari mobile in a way that isn't counter-productive.  They can bring their Starbase to each gravity well, without having to rebuild a new one.  And they can only have one at a time.  To me, it seems like the idea was to make vasari fleets harder to kill, for when they go mobile.

  But I'm not just talking about Vasari.  There are tons of complaints about Titans now too, claiming they are overpowered in dozens of different ways, depending on who you ask.

  So the question is, has anybody actually thought about what the devs INTENDED for these things you're so quick to complain about, or are you just angry that the game doesn't work YOUR way?

-Twi

49,865 views 34 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top

double post

Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Greg30007, reply 14
OH GOD

Guys from 7DS are talking about balance when their mod includes titans with massive damage. Damage so high that normal frigates are not worth building at all. Those are 1 shot 1 kill ships and not all races have them.

 

 

Greg,

The Sa'Matra costs 31000 credits, 4000 metal, 2200 crystal, 372 fleet supply and takes 225 seconds to build.  10k hull/shields, gratuitous firepower, titan fighter/bomber wings (9 units) and is a fast monster pushing 320.  The Kohr'Ah Sa'Matra requires 4 multi-level research items before the Tier 7 research item that unlocks it can be researched.  Empire SSD is 27510 credits, 2352 metal, 3200 credits, 333 fleet supply and 210 seconds to build.  8.4k hull, 15k shields and firepower that just beats hell out of the universe.  As with Sa'Matra, it is mid/late game accessible due to research requirements.

You just aren't going to get a Titan in 7DS out the door early -unless you play the Arilou whose Mothership is a freaking monster, but they are utterly dependent on it. 

Most capitals have a Max Damage Per Second : Fleet Cost effectiveness of 140% to 180% leveled across the races.  More fleet supply the capital costs, the more bang for your buck and a lot it might be.  Fleet cost for all is a complex formula taking into account shields, hull, armor, and antimatter, which also influence credit, metal, crystal levels, ship mass, max speed and fluff crew levels.  Titans have about 170% to 200% effectiveness.  When we made our balances, we really tried to do it right.

If you think my attempt to balance 12 races is off, I'll send you the excel workbook with multiple tabs and tons of data and you can change what you like, add comments and we'll chat it over on skype sometime, then I'll decide if you've anything valuable to contribute and if any of it is feasible to implement with such a short time to final Entrenchment release.  There are things we're discussing in house to change for Rebellion.  If you want to give some constructive feedback, You can find the workbook here.  and give your opinion.

 

 

All others,

Once Stardock gets the game stable or runs out of patches, the major modders/MP players will have to sit down and make the competitive MP balance mod and not rely on Stardock to do it.  Stardock didn't balance out Trinity well and layering the Rebellion imbalances just tips the game over.  I personally don't like that Rebellion is Sins of the Titans, that conventional Trinity warfare has turned into first titan pretty much wins, that they retain levels with slight cost increase, and are early game breakers.  Then there are the Jumping Orky imbalance (why not a non-jumping and a jumping version -unlocked by research that reduces capital slots by 4?), stripped to the core (ability based wanted, not scuttle based), Red-button multikiller, and others, but that's Just my 2 cents. 

 

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 19
Quoting Bama498, reply 17- Requiring Phase Nodes at their destination (i.e. needing a Kostura to attack)

This is quite simply the best solution to the problem.

Before Kosturas come online you have the ultimate mobile defense requiring far less money to defend multiple planets than any other faction can do.

Each expansion into enemy territory would be immediately fortified by a fully leveled star base simply by building a phase node.

With Kosturas or a leveled Antorak you have the ability to attack high valued targets with a fully leveled star base.

This is not an unreasonable implementation of phase jumping starbases, maintaining their hold the line mentality while being able to constantly re-fortify as needed without incurring additional costs to deploy new star bases.

So simple and accomplishes so much to balance this out, they even have the basis for the code in place that prevents a Starbase from jumping to a system that already has a Player starbase present. Add an additional check that prevents jumping as well if there is not a phase node present.

I think I'm coming to the same conclusion as well.  This 'feels' like the right way to balance it.

By tying it into the Vasari phase node network, you also have the requirement of a phase node at the location you jump it from.  This could be a constructed phase stabilizer or it could be the phase node upgrade on the starbase.  The former adds cost and time before it can jump.  The later reduces the Orkie to 7 combat upgrades (and without any rework of the starbase itself, which I get the feeling the developers aren't really interested in doing).

And really, you would probably want to have the phase node upgrade anyways.  Otherwise, it will be difficult to move it after it has jumped into enemy territory (i.e. would require another Kostura shot to the planet you just attacked).

Another limitation this approach would impose is that the only way to jump an Orkie to an allied world (or a neutral gravity well) would be with a level 6 Maurader.  Unless I'm mistaken, the Kostura can only target enemy planets and cannot be used to open a phase node at an allied world.  This could open up a much greater role for the Maurader.

Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top

All others,

Once Stardock gets the game stable or runs out of patches, the major modders/MP players will have to sit down and make the competitive MP balance mod and not rely on Stardock to do it.  Stardock didn't balance out Trinity well and layering the Rebellion imbalances just tips the game over.  I personally don't like that Rebellion is Sins of the Titans, that conventional Trinity warfare has turned into first titan pretty much wins, that they retain levels with slight cost increase, and are early game breakers.  Then there are the Jumping Orky imbalance (why not a non-jumping and a jumping version -unlocked by research that reduces capital slots by 4?), stripped to the core (ability based wanted, not scuttle based), Red-button multikiller, and others, but that's Just my 2 cents.

lol, if I/we have to rely on mods for multiplayer balance then i'll just play a game that promises actual balance.

Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top

I love the Antorak Marauder (not because it is effective, but because it looks cool and has a cool name) and I fully support the VR starbase jumping requiring phase nodes. This is a great idea. Hope the devs think so too.

Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Senza32, reply 11
I pretty much agree with Bilun, with the sole exception of the Ankylon (in regards to Titans of course, his analysis of Orkies is pretty much spot on imo and there's nothing more I can really add to it). I really like where the Ankylon is at now, if we can just get it to not be worthless early game, it'll be the way titans should be imo, basically a high level Ankylon is a bit of a weirdo in terms of Titans. Instead of being this big steamroller that crushes everything in its path I.E. every other titan with the possible exception of the Coronata (which is stretching it), the Ankylon is first and foremost a support ship, but is also a tank, as your fleet supports the Ankylon, so too does the Ankylon support your fleet by augmenting its capabilities and reducing those of the enemy, rather than "supporting" your fleet by just turning the enemy into paste with all powerful AoEs.

Sure, the Ankylon packs a pretty good punch (not as much as other titans, but its still more powerful than any capital ship, and is a formidable opponent for any ship when it is on its own turf, due to millitia armor/ weapons and Furious Defense getting buffed there) but the firepower difference is not so vast that smaller ships cannot adapt to survive it, unlike microwave chastic burst + beam weapons +plasma + psionic surge of the Eradica, or the absolutely brutal Kultorask Nano Leech> Gravity Pulse (or whatever the disabling thingy is) > Dissever combo, or the Ragnarov, which laughs at the dps of any other ship even without its antimatter, or The Maw, which doesn't even care if your HCs have full health, they're dead regardless.

The game is so Titan centric that the only way to counter them is either A. Destroy the enemy before their Titan reaches a high level, B. Have your own high level Titan or C. Spam the hell out of bombers and pray (which is too effective of a universal strategy to begin with). I honestly think Titan AoE needs a hard nerf across the board, or else they need another effective counter, which as others have suggested to be corvettes, since they are marginalized late game by the appearance of flak in larger numbers as well as the addition of powerful Titan AoEs which they are extremely unlikely to survive even a single use of.

I heard somewhere that corvettes were originally intended as a titan counter, but weren't necessarily implemented well in that regard.

Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top

Yeah I know, it even says they are good vs Titans in the unit description... but they're not lol. Unless Corvettes are supposed to destroy Titans by feeding them so much XP that they explode, that is. Should test this :P

Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Senza32, reply 33
Yeah I know, it even says they are good vs Titans in the unit description... but they're not lol. Unless Corvettes are supposed to destroy Titans by feeding them so much XP that they explode, that is. Should test this

 

Well to be fair they can be good against some titans- namely the ones that don't have AoE attacks capable of reducing them to slag quickly and efficiently.

 

For example:

 

Level 1-5 Kutorask Titan- Nano-leech doesn't hit corvettes.

Coronata titan- No AoE to speak of- the ability to steal units isn't really in it's prime when the targets are corvettes either.

Ragnarov Titan- This one requires some Micro, but is doable.  All of it's AoEs require the giant-space-gun to point at it's target.  Corvettes mobility means they have little trouble staying in it's blind spot with some micro

 

Another oft overlooked areas is titan's weapon bank "blind spots"

 Generally speaking, the most dangerous weapons to corvettes are the Titan's antilight "point defense"/"flak"/ect.. weapons(deal 100% dmg instead of 25%)- of course due to armor types these weapons will prioritize bombers as targets, but will choose fighters/corvettes as their second-favorite targets.  Going over each titan:

Ankylon: Only has frontal & rear point defense weapons.  Titan-damage type weapons are however more heavily concentrated on sides.

Ragnarov: only has frontal and rear point defense weapons.  Of course we all already know it's other Titan-damage weapons are concentrated at the front.

Coronata: has point defense weapons facing in all directions.  It's other Titan-damage weapons are only present on fore & rear(only side weapons are point defense)

Eradica: has point defense weapons in all directions.  It's other Titan-damage weapons are focused most heavily in front, but are not present in the rear(only rear weapons are point defense)

Vorastra: has point defense weapons in all directions. It's other Titan-damage weapons are focused most heavily in front, but are not present in the rear(only rear weapons are point defense)

Kultorask: has point defense weapons in all directions.   It's other Titan-damage weapons are focused most heavily in front, but probably more distributed then any other titan.

In general, the Vasari titan's point defense weapons deal the most base DPS, followed by Advent, With TEC titans having the lowest DPS point defense weapons on their titans.  In terms of external modifiers, only the Vasari titan's point defense weapons have weapon upgrades available(Advent & TEC titans use point defense & flak damage weapon types for these weapons).  The Advent also have a few external methods of boosting these weapons(most notably Halcyon aura)

So putting it all together, I honestly think that with proper Micro the Ragnarov may actually be the most corvette-vulnerable titan in the game.  They can stay out of it's line of fire to avoid AoE, if they stay to it's sides, they are in the blind spot of it's point defense weapons(not to mention the TEC titans have the worst point defense DPS anyway).  Of course this requires constant micro to actually work.

Even the Vorastra's splash damage on weapons fire can be greatly mitigated by keeping corvettes behind it where it has no weapon banks.

 

 

I'm not saying that Corvettes are already a sufficient Titan counter- they Aren't, but I think they are a bit underestimated nonetheless.  They do deal 70% damage to titans, take only 25% damage from titan weapons, apply a stacking debuff, and frankly the Only titan AoEs they can't avoided via Micro are the Eradica's Chastic Burst, The Kultorak's Dissever(which is a level 6 ability), and the Anklyon's Disruption Matrix.

At the very least if Corvettes are going to become a legitimate titan counter they need to counter different types of titans more consistently.  The most extreme example is the Eradica, against which corvettes are glorified titan-chow.  The wuick-and-dirty method would be to have corvettes removed from the targeting filter all titan AoE damage abilities & passives- which of course has already been discussed extensively.

 

 

Hmm, well this post got unexpectedly long- Honestly I just was intending to bring up the topic of keeping corvettes in blind spots(whether that means preventing the enemy from facing them to cast abilities or staying on sides with less weapon banks).  Well I found the topic interesting so i went on a bit of a rant as thoughts occurred to me.

Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top

I have to say that I am both dismayed and actually insulted by some of the posts here. Those who have such a clearly low opinion of Stardock and Ironclad should really just leave this community. We balance the game based on the best interests of both single- and multiplayer.  Often those two things coincide, but sometimes they do not. The multiplayer base of Sins is a small minority of overall players, so when push comes to shove, single-player gets the benefit. During development and post release of Sins: Rebellion, we have been very attentive to the multiplayer community's balance concerns and will continue to be. Just because we don't agree with some of the things suggested does not mean we are idiots or don't know our own game - that charge is quite ridiculous.