Claimed to place in My Replies.

-Twi

Problem with star basses is that they have fire-power of a titan and don't need fleet supply. If I play vasari rebel in most cases my fleet would consist of 45 fully upgraded star bases about 10 siege frigates and 1 or 2 capital ship.

I posted reply when I played like that. You can check for yourself....., I had to dispatch a guy first and I still had my first PJ sb before 20 min time. I had 4-5 running sb in 40 minutes. Times might be a bit off but not by much. 

Well, if jumping starbases were with Vasari Loyalists, I could understand, mobility and shit, but Vasari Rebels aren't for mobility at all, and get jumping starbases, instead of the Loyalists, which is kinda stupid IMHO. 

And the Advent Rebel titan is kinda OP with it's lvl 6 ability, its got like 4 minutes of epic antimatter recharge/ability cooldown rate, and now with the patch it has become even stronger... So that claim is legit, altho all the other things I don't really notice(Granted, I play vs AI)

The devs/designers don't understand the strategy of their own game, and anyone who says otherwise is either trolling or is just ignorant of the facts....

Take for example when pbhead actually played a game with a dev...halfway through the game, the dev decided "Well, I guess I better get trade up now"....FACEPALM...and then we have Ironclad devs make statements on the forum about how they honestly do not believe jumping SBs is in any way OP....see things from the designer's perspective?  Seriously?  They don't HAVE a perspective, because they don't understand their own game....

I can't speak for Ironclad, but Stardock has a history of awful game balance...it isn't what they care about, it just isn't...they want to make cool games that are fun, moddable, and cool...balance is an afterthought...

Now, that in and of itself isn't bad...SD makes great games that for SP or casual MP are pretty damn fun....they have the right combination of good graphics and low performance compatibility so everyone can enjoy the game...and they support modding far more than most games ever could be....but, from a competitive MP perspective they epically fail, and in no small part because no one on their team is even remotely close to the level of ICO players...

It is blatantly obvious that the devs wanted this game to be a titans/caps game, understandable since late game fleets completely wiped caps like they were toilet paper....the uncapped AoEs of titans marginalize frigates, forcing players to focus on titans, caps, and key support ships (which presumably is what the devs wanted)...what the devs struggle to understand is the power of bomber spam, which has completely replaced the "en mass frigate spam" that marginalized caps in the first place during the late game...so, the devs didn't get the titans/cap game they probably wanted because bomber spam still results in the same effect: you go through caps like toilet paper...

The game is sins of a titan, not so much because titans are invincible but because everything revolves around titans now...it's all about getting your titan, protecting your titan, leveling your titan, making sure you don't feed the other titan, finding ways to kill the other titan, etc. etc....cap choices, technology picks, and fleet compositions revolve around titans (which at high levels are damn near impossible to kill without massive massive fleet advantage or...that's right...your own high level titan)....

As far as specific balance issues, they come in two flavors...you have the things like Starbase Mobilization and SttC, which are (or at least were) grossly unbalanced...the devs can't understand how these things are too powerful because they don't understand what eco players are capable of and they don't understand that a Tier 8 lab requirement is a small obstacle for a skilled player...then you have things like Wail which are not necessarily OP but are implemented in very questionable ways and cover up the otherwise weak assets of a faction...

To answer your question more directly, Twilight, the balance issues people are bringing up aren't really because they aren't skilled....it's because either they are truly unbalanced or they just don't like the implementation....jumping orkies is not a "you aren't skilled enough to counter" them....they are grossly OP, and anyone who says otherwise is either a troll or needs to play a game on ICO...wail and titans are implemented in a way that just irks players...sure, we all know how to counter them, but it's not an inability to counter that irks us: some of us simply don't like their implemenation....

[quote quoting="Twilight_Storm"]
  Okay, I'll admit this game has had some trouble in the past, but it seems like now there's always something people are complaining about.  I'm wondering if maybe most of the so called balance issues are just coming up from people who are losing games because they THINK the game should work their way.  Take jumping Starbases for example.  They probably do need a little tweaking, I haven't actually played with them so I don't know.  But realistically, they are a good answer to making the vasari mobile in a way that isn't counter-productive.  They can bring their Starbase to each gravity well, without having to rebuild a new one.  And they can only have one at a time.  To me, it seems like the idea was to make vasari fleets harder to kill, for when they go mobile.

[/quote]

Regardless of the Dev's intent, jumping orkies are game-breaking.  The biggest problem is when VR are in the Eco spot, where they can afford to just spam orkies, posing a major threat without having to up their fleet supply(meaning they can be a major threat while keeping their tax rate low and thus retaining a strong economy).

Early mid game- when this combo can first go online, killing max upgrade orkies is a HARD fight- and with the Eco Vas Rebel player not needing to hurt their economy to send this powerhouse offensive, by the time the victim finishes the first orky(If they can even manage to do so), the next level 8 orky is already ready to jump in when the previous one dies.  It quickly becomes a battle of attrition the enemy can't win as the enemy needs to increase fleet upkeep to defend, leaving the Vas Rebel player with a far superior economy to keep pumping out orkies with.

not to mention while only 1 orky may be active per gravity well, by attacking multiple locations the Vas rebel player can have several active.  Several orkies at that stage of the game is fielding a larger total fighting force then most other players, once again for 0 fleet supply.

The other fundamental problem is that Orkies are by design extremely difficult to defend against once upgraded.  This was balanced in the past by the fact that they had to be upgraded on-site, resulting in a long period of vulnerability before they became upgrade-8 incarnations of destruction.  And frankly orky-attacks were already a very strong tactic even with that weakness- remove that weakness by allowing them to be upgraded off-site ata  safe location and orky attacks are a joke.

Right now titans are too much of the game's be-all end-all.  Once they've leveled up a bit you can't counter them with frigates, you can't counter them with capitalships.  You can only counter them with other comparably leveled titans, which in an RTS/4X should be setting off alarm bells right off the bat.  Honestly they either need an external counter(corvettes perhaps?) or they need to not be so efficient at killing frigates en-masse.  Right now because of how powerful titan AoE is, frigates besides carriers are less then useless(they will accomplish nothing besides giving the enemy titan more exp).

 Honestly it's never good for any RTS game's balance for there to be only a single time of viable late game "common unit."  Counter-unit choice is part of the genre's foundation, and when every fleet looks the same more or less, something is wrong.

But at present the simple fact of the matter is that games are won and lost by protecting your own titan and killing the enemy titan- the game just has too much focus on titans at present- Which is generally a good indication that they are too good at what they do.

 That said, there's a pretty good consensus that the *primary* titan problem at present is the potency of Titan AoE damage- If frigates were less marginalized by titan AoE or corvettes were removed fro mall titan AoE filters(creating a counter-unit), it's very likely the problem would be resolved.

Too many things at this point to change to bring the around.  No matter how much feedback we put in, Rebellion isn't going to change significantly.  There might be balancing for the next 6 months, but the core mechanics are just locked in. 

Remember, Stardock started development with no input whatsoever from the community at large, then put out the Beta + content/patches, and finally released the game.  Too many people voiced concerns during Beta against 1 titan, level retention, corvette OP, jumping starbases, early game titan dominance, worthlessness of Trinity traditional fleets in Rebellion, and many of the abilities that still have problems.  Those voices of opposition were considered up to the point that they didn't jive with what Stardock wanted. 

This is their game, not ours.  Rebellion is exactly what they wanted; a Titan/Champion dominated quasi-moba where you build your empire and own minions.  You can't play without Titans and jumping starbases, might as well play Entrenchment/Diplomacy.

OH GOD

Guys from 7DS are talking about balance when their mod includes titans with massive damage. Damage so high that normal frigates are not worth building at all. Those are 1 shot 1 kill ships and not all races have them.

I know.  I'm trying to poke fun at Samaz since I'm completely willing to admit our mod has plenty of imba stuff and is in no way a serious competitive mod for multiplayer.

On the other hand, Titans with massive damage that one-shot normal frigates that not all races have could describe Rebellion pretty well in some cases.  That Ankylon is a pretty nasty frigate-eater, and I'm sure the Coronata absolutely devours frigates alive, too.  It isn't like they lack of massive railgun and Gauss batteries of the Ragnarov or the Eradica's Chastic Burst. Those Vasari Rebels also get some pretty nasty technologies that buff their hulls and shields to absurd levels in addition to their jumping starbases, so don't you and your friends like to boast about how banned in MP they are?  Both Rebellion and 7DS have major imbas, so don't act like our mod is massively inferior because of that.

Seriously though, 7DS is not a competitive mod, so just go ahead, grab a couple friends, start drinking beer, and stomp some comps into the ground.  Our inevitable move to Rebellion is going to open up some options for that with the Cruel and Vicious AI, especially if the TOC is set at one of those difficulties.

Personally I think any solution must be tied to a starbase upgrade that must be purchased separately for the starbase to jump. Otherwise you will nerf purely defensive orkies, possible even without the tech researched. It will also makes their cost scale more with large numbers, and reduces the number of upgrades that can be used for combat.

After that is done, I think the phase node idea or simply making it so they can only jump once say every 5 minutes would do a lot to limit their mobility. It then boils down to how tough they are with only 5-7 combat upgrades instead of 8.

Also in my mod I have kept Orkies at the tier 8 military level, but still with the prerequisite of Enhanced Tunneling, so in effect you need 8 military labs and 7 civic labs. It definitely slows it down but once its online it is just as exploitable.

[quote who="Seleuceia" reply="8" id="3226491"]The devs/designers don't understand the strategy of their own game, and anyone who says otherwise is either trolling or is just ignorant of the facts....
[quote]

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  (Although coming from Seleuceia, I am slightly inclined to believe this is a troll in itself...)  Regardless, everybody on these forums seems to have their own idea of how the game is supposed to work.  Suggestiong that the developers of the game don't know how it works is rediculous.  Yes, there are problems with it, and there have always been some minor issues(Or major in the case of Illums) but overall, the game has been balanced very well IMO.  Just take a look at all these different complainst people are coming up with recently.  I've noticed quite a few people opposing there even being a balance issue on some of these, and immediately accused of trolling after.  (Yeah, a couple probably are, but not all of them.)

-Twi

Yeah people think that devs are really good at the games they make but this simply is not really true because they don't spend nearly as much time playing the game as they do developing it. Something that might look fine on paper could be horribly broken in practice, as is often the case.

The developers' is the perspective I aspire to appeal from.

Fun first, game balance second.  The complaints are legit, and vasari rebels are overpowered in many ways.  Titans really aren't overpowered as they are, most complaints were with the factions titans that were UNDERPOWERED.  From what i've seen all the titans are now up to strength.  Now the vasari rebels titan hasn't gotten much balancing because that faction hasn't been played much because the mechanics of how the vasari receive their mobile starbases are extremely exploitable.  By extremely exploitable i mean that players online will be rush building vasari starbases almost exclusively, and all successful team combinations will require at least one vasari rebel player.  That doesn't make for good game play, because the game becomes centered around one faction in team play.  By banning VR in multiplayer we are giving everyone who enjoys playing all other factions a relatively fair and balanced version of sins rebellion.  

By having a balanced multiplayer experience, you have a higher retention of new players playing online, and therefore you will grow your online community.  

win for developers, win for players.

I'd say that the multiplayer community has the right perspective.

This may be true with Stardock but Ironclad was mostly a non-factor during Rebellion's development for the most part I believe.

By the time Rebellion beta came around and such, they were already focused in on their Sins of a Dark Age and let Stardock deal with Rebellion.

Hopefully if Ironclad is serious about Sins of a Dark Age, they will gain much more experience in balancing and maintaining on online MP community even though it is a RTS/MOBA. So by the time they roll back to SOASE, they can do a better job at it.