N3rull N3rull

This HAS to GO!

This HAS to GO!

The arcing turns are retarded.

Period.

(scroll to the bottom for suggested solutions; keep reading for rants)

You guys at Ironclad say that people complain about the game being too static, that the ships don't move around too much and that sort of stuff to justify the arcing maneuvers of units.

You'll not make need for speed out of this game. But you can put a little sense into the pathing!

Maneuvering larger fleets is all but impossible. Ships all aim for their places in formation and when that shifts slightly, they begin to do those damned arcing turns, ending up all over the gravwell, eating enemy's starbase railgun fire and clearing minefields with their faces.

Example:

I entered the gravwell from a safe direction so as to evade the extensive minefield. I approached the enemy starbase (it had been where the yellow X is) by circling the minefield and attacking from a mine-free side (green arrow).

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5153/screenshot28d.jpg

After finishing off the starbase I realized that I couldn't get out of the minefield. I couldn't go forward, because the gravwell "edge" was too close to evade mines. "Just turning back" would be the best option

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8374/screenshot29k.jpg

 I knew what would happen, but I didn't have time to micro all ~100 ships (I could've used the Z-axis, but the ships would do the same thing only above the minefield), so I just waved my hand and watched them do their "clever" turn.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9441/screenshot30b.jpg

Effect: 6 ships dead, dozen barely alive and the minefield cleared neatly. Awesome :thumbsup:   

And that Vulkoras... how the hell is THAT supposed to be anything close to turning around???

ANOTHER example:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please, PLEASE, if you really want to succumb to children's whines about how they want their battleships show off  with drift racing in space, give them an "I want my ships to do idiotic circles instead of turning" option in fleet management. But for the rest who would really want the ships to do sensible stuff - please, at least make the ships turn 90 or even 50 degrees first before they accelerate. It would DRASTICALLY reduce the "stupid circle syndrome".
Those circles truly make this game annoying at times. Kortul using Jam weapons deliberately flies half a gravwell away from the rest of the fleet simply because he has to make a thousand mile circle in order to move ten miles back. Skirantra suddenly stinks like a camel, cause the whole fleet decides to stay half a gravwell away from it (and away from repair cloud of course). Ordering your fleet to move AWAY from the enemy starbase makes your fleet fly right THROUGH it, deliberately so as to catch fire from all possible weapon banks on the beast.

Argh! Somebody give me a SINGLE screenshot depicting a situation where a HUGE CIRCLING TURN is the SENSIBLE THING TO DO.

I beg you IC, rethink this ship behaviour. It really makes controlling large fleets too much like trying to hold a glass of water on your open palm after the glass is gone.

 

PS. Any of the following suggestions would fix the arcing turns stupidity to some extent, ordered from most brutal (longest wait, greatest arcing reduction effect) to the lest noticeable movement-wise, whilst still having a big impact on the arcing.


My suggestions are:
- make the ships wait until their destination is in the forward hemisphere (long wait) or
- make the ships start accelerating after turning 30-50 degrees instead of immediately. That alone would make a HUGE difference! (as in: accelerate if destination is less than 150-120 degrees from current heading.)
- make the ships start accelerating if their rotation ratio has reached its maximum. It would take roughly 1-2 seconds of wait for all ships, 3 sec for a starbase, and would reduce the circling by almost a half!

1-2 seconds of wait before accelerating <-> 50% lesser arcing turn.

That's the best deal I have ever heard if you ask me.

253,891 views 107 replies
Reply #51 Top

N3rull, you are from Poland? :S

Sad...

Reply #52 Top

And what is that supposed to mean? It is a fouled up country led by fouled up people trying to keep a fouled up Nation from stealing their own shoes from themselves.
Is something wrong with me living there?

Reply #53 Top

The thing is, your ships will get shot at either way, but by going with N3's/my suggestions, you can reduce the time during which you can be shot at.

And how long have you been speaking English, because aside from a minor modificate error here or there, your grammar is just as good (if not better) than someone who speaks it natively.

Reply #54 Top

Not really. It is my personal "problem". Whenever I start writing posts I see people from Poland. Polish people are so active community every game I played. I didn't know that before. Why "sad"? Because I had feeleing "omg another Guy from Poland". So it is not really sad. It is funny. By the way... what doeas it mean:

"It is a fouled up country led by fouled up people trying to keep a fouled up Nation from stealing their own shoes from themselves."

?

Reply #55 Top

I believe that was sarcasm and a reference to the holocaust...

Reply #56 Top

What does it mean? I still don't understand.

Reply #57 Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 53
The thing is, your ships will get shot at either way, but by going with N3's/my suggestions, you can reduce the time during which you can be shot at.
That is because when your ships DO begin moving AWAY from the enemy, they are starting from where they were in the first place (cause they turned on the spot), not from the middle of the enemy's fleet (where they end up right now thanks to arcing turns).

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 53
And how long have you been speaking English, because aside from a minor modificate error here or there, your grammar is just as good (if not better) than someone who speaks it natively.
thanks. I can't really recall when I started taking lessons. Must've been around the beginning of the grammar school.

"It is a fouled up country led by fouled up people trying to keep a fouled up Nation from stealing their own shoes from themselves."
Uhh, it's hard to explain. Let's just say that the majority of Polish people have one maxim - "Not my business".
- That old man on the other side of the road has just slipped on the icy pavement and doesn't get up. Haha. Not my business.
- Look, someone's stealing a car! Call the cops? Why? It's not my car. Not my business.
- Oh my God! A car accident, look! I wonder if anyone's hurt. Stop and check, call an ambulance? Why, it's not me who has crashed. Not my business.
- Listen, I work in the frozen fish aisle and this fish is fresh. Thus, I won't tell you, dear Customer, how much it costs, even though I could check it in 30 seconds. It's not my duty. Not my business.
Moreover, people in Poland have a peculiar way of thinking that everybody else has enough and that if you can help yourself with something (doesn't matter that it isn't yours by right) without being punished for doing it, it is only fair to do so and lacking "assertiveness" if you don't. And so evading taxes, skipping lines, eating stuff in supermarkets and not paying for it is just being "assertive". It's a National skill to fight openly for everything that is yours (even if you don't need it and the other person does) and at the same time treat unguarded property of others as "opportunity".

It's very sophisticated; you'd have to live here for 20 years to know.

PS. I think we're getting a little off topic here.

Reply #58 Top

I completely agree with the OP. The whole turning and acceleration physics in this game is a pain in the ass. I personally fixed it a bit by modding - increased ships turn rates and decreased movement speed, but it still causes problems sometimes. The best option would be turn rate increase along with the new rule that ships start accelerating forward only if the target waypoint is in, say 90 degrees FOV angle or less (45 degrees off the central FOV axis or less).

Reply #59 Top

Volt, why do you think people in other countries are different?

 

BTW. Starhips should have something like "reverse engines". IThey are not naval ships, they are not forced to run circls to change direction they move.

Reply #60 Top

Exactly.  Less distance travelled=less time taken.

I'll put it this way, had you guys not started talking about being Polish, I never would have guessed you didn't speak English by default.  Due to a few wording differences, I would have placed you as British or New Zealandian (I have no idea what you call people from that country...).  Not American due to a few subtle changes and not Australian as you don't use words like "mate."  Of course, you probably learned British English due to the UK being a whole lot closer to you than the US.

That's kinda how most of the western world is right now...  There was a quote I read the other day that is very applicable to this: "Republics are destroyed by luxury, monarchies by poverty."  Luxury>laziness>apathy>greed>corruption> autocracy.  Its a sad cycle...  But yes, this is very off topic.

 

 Volt, why do you think people in other countries are different?

Huh?  I don't really..  I mean aside from different languages, people aren't that different.  Regardless of country, people have the same types of faults...  Greed, apathy, laziness, etc...  And I certainly think we've got you guys beat when it comes to greed...

Reply #61 Top

The best option would be turn rate increase along with the new rule that ships start accelerating forward only if the target waypoint is in, say 90 degrees FOV angle or less (45 degrees off the central FOV axis or less).
That would be too harsh. Most of the time you do not want your ship to pursue the straightest route to the target, but to reach it most effectively. In the current system, most effectively would mean starting engines somewhere around the moment when your target is in your forward hemisphere. Waiting till it's right in front of you is a waste of time (you could have been getting closer to your destination as you were turning the last 45 degrees in place).

However, getting to your destination by first moving half again the distance in the opposite direction is like trying to drive a car from Mexico to Alaska through Buenos Aires. Does that sound stupid enough?

Reply #62 Top

However, getting to your destination by first moving half again the distance in the opposite direction is like trying to drive a car from Mexico to Alaska through Buenos Aires. Does that sound stupid enough?

That's true...  Sad, but that really is a great analogy...

Reply #63 Top

Uhh, it's hard to explain. Let's just say that the majority of Polish people have one maxim - "Not my business".

- That old man on the other side of the road has just slipped on the icy pavement and doesn't get up. Haha. Not my business.

- Look, someone's stealing a car! Call the cops? Why? It's not my car. Not my business.

- Oh my God! A car accident, look! I wonder if anyone's hurt. Stop and check, call an ambulance? Why, it's not me who has crashed. Not my business.

- Listen, I work in the frozen fish aisle and this fish is fresh. Thus, I won't tell you, dear Customer, how much it costs, even though I could check it in 30 seconds. It's not my duty. Not my business.

Moreover, people in Poland have a peculiar way of thinking that everybody else has enough and that if you can help yourself with something (doesn't matter that it isn't yours by right) without being punished for doing it, it is only fair to do so and lacking "assertiveness" if you don't. And so evading taxes, skipping lines, eating stuff in supermarkets and not paying for it is just being "assertive". It's a National skill to fight openly for everything that is yours (even if you don't need it and the other person does) and at the same time treat unguarded property of others as "opportunity".

omg... my grandparents are polish and ITS SO TRUE!

Reply #64 Top

^On the plus side, at least you aren't lead by Gordon Brown.

 

Back on topic: I think the people who are actually arguing in favour of the arcing turns seem to be under the impression that this is WWII and their ships are all little sturmtruppen who can dodge bullets when they're moving because the enemy actually has to aim.  Let me tell those people that ships in Sins (flak excluded) always fire with 100% accuracy and power, so no matter how much your vessels prance about like pixies, they're still going to get smacked by that incoming laser bolt.  End result, getting moving BEFORE pointing towards your destination has NO benefit from a combat perspective, as being in motion doesn't protect you from any damage, especially if you happen to fly right through the enemy fleet where they can blast you to bits as you trundle through their line(s) of fire.

 

Meh.  Small addition to fend off the nay-sayers.  Please devs, listen!

Reply #65 Top

I wonder if it could be modded to decrease damage done to ships on the move?

Reply #66 Top

I brought up the idea of reverse movement manauvers many times but after playing the game so much, I wouldn't want it in the game

Its just gonna create so much more problems with balance

Reply #67 Top

I brought up the idea of reverse movement manauvers many times but after playing the game so much, I wouldn't want it in the game

Its just gonna create so much more problems with balance
You wouldn't want reverse drives or fixing the problem at all?

Why would that cause balance problems?

Reply #68 Top

Reverse drives would pose a problem in that certain forward firing ships, like lf and the Marza, could "retreat" all the way to the edge of the grav well and then be in an easy position to bail out without having to sacrifice any firepower by turning around and thus pointing their guns away from the enemy.  End result would be no-one would stand and fight as the ships attacking forward would be at a disadvantage to those moving backward as the enemy actually gets a bonus for retreating - they can get away safely AND do lots of damage - rather than the other way round - vessels must turn their weapons (or most of them) away from the enemy to flee which means the attacker can do some (relatively) retribution free damage - think cavalry charging down fleeing infantry.

 

And a reverse move still doesn't explain why the captains pull the daft arcing turns in the first place.  I mean, are they trying to get a good view of the star or something?  "Look at that pretty blue- " *bang* " -minefield..."  Imagine explaining THAT to your lizard like superior - a throat sweet won't solve that mistake, that's for sure.

Reply #69 Top

Reverse drives would pose a problem in that certain forward firing ships, like lf and the Marza, could "retreat" all the way to the edge of the grav well and then be in an easy position to bail out without having to sacrifice any firepower by turning around and thus pointing their guns away from the enemy. End result would be no-one would stand and fight as the ships attacking forward would be at a disadvantage to those moving backward as the enemy actually gets a bonus for retreating - they can get away safely AND do lots of damage - rather than the other way round - vessels must turn their weapons (or most of them) away from the enemy to flee which means the attacker can do some (relatively) retribution free damage - think cavalry charging down fleeing infantry.
I see. Doesn't have anything to do with my idea. That's what I wanted to know :P

Reply #70 Top

I feel your pain!

At the beginning I lost many a ship trying to jump them out combat.  Instead of making a beeline for the exit - they move towards the enemy ships in order to do the "arc turn" and then blown away pointblank! haha

At the least they should have a tech for "Manuevering Thrusters"

Reply #71 Top

Added a nice comic in the main post, hoping to harvest some karma and catch Annatar someday!

Enjoy :rofl:

+1 Loading…
Reply #72 Top

Added a nice comic in the main post, hoping to harvest some karma

You are probably right :thumbsup:

Reply #73 Top

personally I think they should just remove z-axis control from the game, as it stands 99% of the time a player is using it, it's to commit some sort of abuse. Better to remove it entirely from direct control, only allowing ships some limited z-axis pathing ai to clear obstacles.
"Some sort"?  There is no abuse in using the Z axis if you have the time/ability to micro.  And as far as pathing goes, this applies as well.  It's well known that while it's a pain in the ass, in order to effectively remediate the willy-nilly pathing, one has to completely segment the pathing into smaller "chunks" of directional movement in order to achieve anything like a controlled advance around a star base, or shortest distance to a phase lane.  Goes for grouped fleets as well, but they have to be controlled separately due to their turning radius variances. 

Micro Mayhem!

Reply #74 Top

Quoting N3rull, reply 71
Added a nice comic in the main post, hoping to harvest some karma and catch Annatar someday!

Enjoy

You'll never catch him.  Nobody can out-karma Annatar.

Reply #75 Top

We ain't talking about the Z axis, that's one.

If you micro your fleet by small chunks, they may keep together - but the majority of the fleet will be waiting, doing nothing. If you want the fleet to retreat FAST, such microing is not going to help.

Sure, if I have all the time I need, I can micro each ship individually and make it get to the finish line while leaving a fancy "i love u" exhaust trail throughout the gravity well. But that's not what the game should require from the player to function sensibly.

Every single RTS game out there has units moving to their destinations sensibly. If the game assumes that units cannot stop dead on the spot, they at least slow down to reduce the arc of their turn. It is the player's skill in micro that allows him to order a unit around in a sophisticated manner fitting his malicious plan, but the units automatically take the most straightforward, simple and effective route to the destination.
In sins, it takes micro to make the ships do a turn that is not outright stupid. This is wrong.
Maybe we should also have to micro planet upgrades so that they don't magically apply to an enemy planet?