N3rull N3rull

This HAS to GO!

▼

This HAS to GO!

from Sins Forums

The arcing turns are retarded.

Period.

(scroll to the bottom for suggested solutions; keep reading for rants)

You guys at Ironclad say that people complain about the game being too static, that the ships don't move around too much and that sort of stuff to justify the arcing maneuvers of units.

You'll not make need for speed out of this game. But you can put a little sense into the pathing!

Maneuvering larger fleets is all but impossible. Ships all aim for their places in formation and when that shifts slightly, they begin to do those damned arcing turns, ending up all over the gravwell, eating enemy's starbase railgun fire and clearing minefields with their faces.

Example:

I entered the gravwell from a safe direction so as to evade the extensive minefield. I approached the enemy starbase (it had been where the yellow X is) by circling the minefield and attacking from a mine-free side (green arrow).

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5153/screenshot28d.jpg

After finishing off the starbase I realized that I couldn't get out of the minefield. I couldn't go forward, because the gravwell "edge" was too close to evade mines. "Just turning back" would be the best option

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8374/screenshot29k.jpg

 I knew what would happen, but I didn't have time to micro all ~100 ships (I could've used the Z-axis, but the ships would do the same thing only above the minefield), so I just waved my hand and watched them do their "clever" turn.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9441/screenshot30b.jpg

Effect: 6 ships dead, dozen barely alive and the minefield cleared neatly. Awesome :thumbsup:   

And that Vulkoras... how the hell is THAT supposed to be anything close to turning around???

ANOTHER example:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please, PLEASE, if you really want to succumb to children's whines about how they want their battleships show off  with drift racing in space, give them an "I want my ships to do idiotic circles instead of turning" option in fleet management. But for the rest who would really want the ships to do sensible stuff - please, at least make the ships turn 90 or even 50 degrees first before they accelerate. It would DRASTICALLY reduce the "stupid circle syndrome".
Those circles truly make this game annoying at times. Kortul using Jam weapons deliberately flies half a gravwell away from the rest of the fleet simply because he has to make a thousand mile circle in order to move ten miles back. Skirantra suddenly stinks like a camel, cause the whole fleet decides to stay half a gravwell away from it (and away from repair cloud of course). Ordering your fleet to move AWAY from the enemy starbase makes your fleet fly right THROUGH it, deliberately so as to catch fire from all possible weapon banks on the beast.

Argh! Somebody give me a SINGLE screenshot depicting a situation where a HUGE CIRCLING TURN is the SENSIBLE THING TO DO.

I beg you IC, rethink this ship behaviour. It really makes controlling large fleets too much like trying to hold a glass of water on your open palm after the glass is gone.

 

PS. Any of the following suggestions would fix the arcing turns stupidity to some extent, ordered from most brutal (longest wait, greatest arcing reduction effect) to the lest noticeable movement-wise, whilst still having a big impact on the arcing.


My suggestions are:
- make the ships wait until their destination is in the forward hemisphere (long wait) or
- make the ships start accelerating after turning 30-50 degrees instead of immediately. That alone would make a HUGE difference! (as in: accelerate if destination is less than 150-120 degrees from current heading.)
- make the ships start accelerating if their rotation ratio has reached its maximum. It would take roughly 1-2 seconds of wait for all ships, 3 sec for a starbase, and would reduce the circling by almost a half!

1-2 seconds of wait before accelerating <-> 50% lesser arcing turn.

That's the best deal I have ever heard if you ask me.

253,923 views 107 replies +5 Loading…
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Hunter_Killers, reply 22
The real (and simple) solution would be ships turning without going forwards until the destination is within ~30 degrees of the frontal arc, the entire problem is the ships try to turn and accelerate at the same time.

Since most ships accelerate over some time, it would actually be enough if the ship started accelerating as soon as its destination was anywhere in its forward hemisphere.

Quoting MaarekStele, reply 23
The game has physics involved.  First rule, an object in motion tends to stay in motion.  They kept that here, so a ship has to make the long route since it's moving.
I agree. Explain to me, however, why a STATIONARY ship begins to accelerate FORWARD when ordered to move BACK?

I don't want to throw secondary school Science at you here, but energy-wise it is a better idea to STOP the ship, turn it around and accelerate again. I can compose a nice jpeg illustration for proof if you need it, I seem to be addicted to Paint recently.

Quoting MaarekStele, reply 23
They implemented the Gravity well, so there's rules about movement.  That's why the huge turn.
This doesn't make any sense to me. Care elaborate what you mean? Are you trying to include gravity as an argument for the arcing turns? If so, think again, since NOTHING in this game is orbiting ANYTHING, which means gravity is a tiny nuisance for soase ships.

Quoting MaarekStele, reply 23
Put it this way.  Drive your car and make a right turn doing 40mph.  You won't make the same turn if you did it at a slower speed and don't start with brakes, there are none in space only reverse thrust to "slow" you down.
Oh, but there ARE brakes! The force that makes the car turn is the FRICTION BETWEEN THE TIRES AND THE GROUND, which is the very same force which causes the car to slow down when you hit the brakes. If there are no breakes then the ship is doomed to fly forward till the end of time, or until Chuck Norris says otherwise.
If you begin turning your ship around in space, it will keep going in the same direction, only it will be facing sideways - that's not something you can do with a car.

Let's not turn that into a science-fiction debate of how future spaceship engines will look like.

The following points hold true:
- you can turn any object in space around its own centre of mass with equal force regardless of its speed (stay away from lightspeed though, Einstein messed physics in these areas bad enough; up until ~0.8c this rule is true)
- the least-energy consuming way of changing destination is accelerating straight towards the target, not making long arcs
- when moving in the wrong direction, the least energy-consuming way of turning around is to stop and accelerate in the right way (which basically, in space, means accelerating longer in the right direction, since there's no "stopping" there, only accelerating in the opposite direction to your movement)

Which basically means:

- there is nothing more stupid to do in space than a long arcing turn

- PARTICULARLY a long arcing turn that begins with accelerating in the direction opposite to the destination, when starting from a static position (in relation to the target).

Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top

@Rezo: But that is where the previous rule comes in.  Independent ships (or flagships as they are not bound to any other flagship) will turn themselves when stationary so as to be in line with the invisible line formed by their current location and the location they were at when they move order was issued.  By only applying this to flagships and independent ships, you can save some on computing power.  Fleeted ships would then just follow their flagship and would align themselves properly.  So it really doesn't matter whether the flagship is on the right, left or center of the fleet.  It still works.

 

Put it this way.  Drive your car and make a right turn doing 40mph.  You won't make the same turn if you did it at a slower speed and don't start with brakes, there are none in space only reverse thrust to "slow" you down.

I did pull that off once, though it was a left turn and I was going 55...

Start11 - Customize the Start Menu and Taskbar in Windows 10/11.
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top

Mines are already useless enough, Atleast give them this advantage.

Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top

@Volt: Ahh, i see, still, each ship would need to be told to rotate first, not just line up with the flagship however they saw fit...

though it does make a difference that if you flagship is on the far right of the fleet, and you click for the fleet to get snug into a mine field, the far left of your fleet may run into mines because of alignment issues...

Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top

If you really wanted to put this side by side with a real life example, look at any tracked vehicle that can turn on the spot.

Spaceships don't have to move forwards to turn.

Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top

@Rezo: No..  You have the priority backwards.  Subordinate ships will auto align themselves with the flagship if left alone with nothing to do, but flagships (or any ships that are not bound to a flagship) will auto align themselves in such a way as to be at an angle that would exist should they have taken a 100% direct route.

And also, when your fleet is in formation and you select it, you are determining the future location of the flagship rather than the fleet.  I don't see how that is a problem.  Just know which side the FS is on...  Besides, it would not be a new problem.  This issue already exists.

Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top

know which side the FS is on... Besides, it would not be a new problem.

1. the flagship can and does change sides when the formation is scrambled and realigned

2. never said its a new problem, but a problem nonetheless

Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top

I think this issue would also be solved by the "turn button" that was suggested here a few weeks ago.

In this way, instead of giving your ships an order to fly behind them, and having them do a large arc turn through a minefield, you could give them two consecutive orders: turn 180 degrees, then move. It wouldn't get you where you're going as quickly as the current method, but it would stop the problems with getting stuck in tight areas or minefields.

Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top

It wouldn't solve the problem too well.

In most situations when this arcing bullshit manifests, it's when you have to get a large group of ships out of some danger, or to pursuit (both - NOW) something. Ships turn at varying rates. If I ordered a well composed (as in - has a bit of everything included) fleet the order to turn 180, I would have light frigs already turned and waiting before the caps have turned a quarter of the angle.
Now, unless you want to micro all ship types, I will have either the faster turning half of my fleet waiting or (if I issue the move earlier) my big ships will do the arcing anyway. Little profit, unfortunately.

Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting N3rull, reply 34
It wouldn't solve the problem too well.

In most situations when this arcing bullshit manifests, it's when you have to get a large group of ships out of some danger, or to pursuit (both - NOW) something. Ships turn at varying rates. If I ordered a well composed (as in - has a bit of everything included) fleet the order to turn 180, I would have light frigs already turned and waiting before the caps have turned a quarter of the angle.
Now, unless you want to micro all ship types, I will have either the faster turning half of my fleet waiting or (if I issue the move earlier) my big ships will do the arcing anyway. Little profit, unfortunately.

agreed...

but then what do you propose? it seems an unsolvable problem because turning doesnt work and rotating doesnt work so?

Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top

read my monster post on page 1...

Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Darvin3, reply 24

The game has physics involved.  First rule, an object in motion tends to stay in motion.


Strictly speaking that's not true.  Ever seen a ship nudged by repulse?  Even if the repulse effect is perpendicular to its direction of motion, it loses all momentum and comes to a complete stop on a dime. 

Ever seen a ship get ion bolted? its disabled... does it drift? no... it does an immediate full stop. wtf?

Same with reverie, phase out... subverted ships...

repluse, however is really really gay... cause its just like *STOP*, *push*, *STOP*... instead of something... like a force accelerating the ship away from the guardian.

Reinstate the three laws of motion plz. :-(

Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top

but then what do you propose? it seems an unsolvable problem because turning doesnt work and rotating doesnt work so?

It's dead simple - make ships do the following:

If stopped, make them turn until their destination is in their forward hemisphere and accelerate only after that condition is fulfilled. Actually, they don't have to turn full 90 degrees on the spot - any angle greater than 30 degrees would do wonders, because the ship would begin accelerating whilst already having its rotation rate maximized! Thus, it will not manage to fly out of the gravwell before it begins to head towards the destination.

If the ship is moving, it should turn off its engines and begin rotating until the above condition is fulfilled. Then, start accelerating again.

That's the most sensible thing to do energy-wise, sensible-wise and I-do-not-want-you-in-that-fu***n'-minefield-you-retard-wise .

Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top

but lets say your fleet is sitting in place and fighting an enemy. a reinforcement fleet jumps in, and you decide to pull back your forces, your ships will sit there, rotating and not really fighting back, soaking up damage... exactly what you said in reply 34...

Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting TheRezonator, reply 39
but lets say your fleet is sitting in place and fighting an enemy. a reinforcement fleet jumps in, and you decide to pull back your forces, your ships will sit there, rotating and not really fighting back, soaking up damage... exactly what you said in reply 34...
There we go again with selective reading.

No, they are NOT sitting there soaking damage. They are turning. After they turn 30/50/whatever degrees, they start their engines and gtfo.

In reply 34 I said that if there was a button to "turn around", half of my units would be "sitting there". That is because my cap would hardly change its heading before light frigs were facing backwards. Light frigs are now SITTING AND WAITING for the cap. They are NOT turning anymore, they are not fighting as well - they are wasting their time, hit points and MY NERVES. 
If I order my fleet to move at that moment, my frigs will go back while my cap will do the arcing turn and crash into the enemy fleet (great way to preserve caps!).
If I wait for my caps, my light frigs are doing nothing except dying.
The third alternative is manual microing all ship types separately. Great, that's exactly what forming fleets is for - to have to order each unit type to move separately so as not to have them making big stupid arcing turns.
RETARDED.

My solution means that every ship starts to move after at least minimally aligning itself towards the target. They are NOT sitting there soaking damage. They are doing exactly the same thing they're doing now, which is TURNING, with just one exception - THEY ARE NOT CRASHING INTO THE F***IN ENEMY FLEET/MINEFIELD/STARBASE LIKE SOME LUNATIC KAMIKAZE RETARDS.

Yes, they are rotating while stationary. They cannot magically change their heading by 180 degrees in a split second, can they now? They can't. They have to turn. But they can at least do that WITHOUT THAT STUPID ARCING TURN that throws LRFs into HC range, crashes support cruisers into starbases or makes your caps take a trip through minefields.

I can make a comic for you in Paint depicting what I said if you really need such an explanation.

Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top

so you are saying have each ship turn to a heading that wont have it run into a fleet/mines (say 30-50 degrees) and then move, regardless of if other ships have reached similar positions, right?

but then exactly as you said, ships with slower turn rates get left behind (though this would happen anyway)

on a slight tangent, and i think it was mentioned elsewhere, but i seriously think capitals should be able to knock other ships out of the way when moving... that way if two fleets are mixed in with each other, and not aligned neatly in formations, Capitals have a higher chance of surviving

im not trying to shoot you down, i completely agree with you, im just playing devils advocate for the sake of getting the concept well thrashed out

Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top

Agreed.  Arcing turns are fail.

so you are saying have each ship turn to a heading that wont have it run into a fleet/mines (say 30-50 degrees) and then move, regardless of if other ships have reached similar positions, right?

but then exactly as you said, ships with slower turn rates get left behind (though this would happen anyway)

I belive that's what he's saying.  To put a finer point on it, although the slower ships get left behind they are not only more durable than the ships that got out faster (so you are technically saving the lighter ships that would have been destroyed waiting for the heavier vessels) but even though they get left behind during the turning phase, they get out of the enemy's range of fire much faster (because they are probably close to the maximum range of enemy guns).  Had they fired their thrusters immediately and flown through the enemy fleet, the heavier vessels would have taken fire as they traveled through the entire firing arc of the enemy vessels (while all the enemy has to do is turn on the spot to keep your vessel targeted, rather than accelerate after you himself and play bullet tag) and most probably arc-turned WITHIN the enemy's weapon fire radius, thus guzzling even more fire as they come BACK through the enemy fleet. 

 

In other words, you take less damage even if the cannon fodder leaves you behind.  That said, even though the lighter ships ARE cannon fodder, every ship saved is one you don't have to rebuilt.  End result is good for all parties (except the enemy, of course). 

 

Did I get it right?

 

P.S.  To nit-pick;, the most energy efficient way to turn in space is to turn around something, like a planet.  That debate however, is for another (pointless) thread.  What we have here is a sensible solution to a VERY annoying problem.

Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top

electron got it right in all aspects.

When I'm ordering my fleet to gtfo, I want each and every ship to gtfo as soon as possible. Caps are slowest... true. They will retreat last, just as they would in the current movement system, only that they would not smash into the enemy fleet in due course.

Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top

I'm with Electron and N3.

Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top

me too, now we place bets on whether IC will listen and actually implement it

Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting TheRezonator, reply 45
me too, now we place bets on whether IC will listen and actually implement it

They won't. It's been mentioned consistently since the Sins beta, but they like it this way.

Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top

Do you HAVE to blow all our hopes for sensible unit movement away like that, annatar??

No karma for you today! Bad boy!! XO

PS. People have been ranting about MB being OP and even though IC said they were ok with the ability, they did modificate it slightly (graphics and bigger damage intervals). Maybe they will see sense once again when it's laid down in front of them. It does not take a huge modification, only a tiny little 30 degree turn before engine start and it will all be so much more sensible.

Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top

While the huge turn radius is annoying, it is very important that the ship DO NOT turn before accelerating.  The primary reason is that in a line of battle, the capship does not have much room to turn as there are dozens of frigates on both sides blocking the turn which could be critical if you see some cap killing hurt comming at you.  I rather keep them moving while turning as it takes a while for a capship to turn 30 degerees which gives the enemy enough time to get into range and start blasting.

Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting CoBBQ, reply 48
While the huge turn radius is annoying, it is very important that the ship DO NOT turn before accelerating.  The primary reason is that in a line of battle, the capship does not have much room to turn as there are dozens of frigates on both sides blocking the turn which could be critical if you see some cap killing hurt comming at you.  I rather keep them moving while turning as it takes a while for a capship to turn 30 degerees which gives the enemy enough time to get into range and start blasting.

thats what i thought, but only real people focus fire, the AI doesnt... so i figured its worth the change because people will FF regardless...

modificate

modificate? really?

Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top

While the huge turn radius is annoying, it is very important that the ship DO NOT turn before accelerating. The primary reason is that in a line of battle, the capship does not have much room to turn as there are dozens of frigates on both sides blocking the turn which could be critical if you see some cap killing hurt comming at you. I rather keep them moving while turning as it takes a while for a capship to turn 30 degerees which gives the enemy enough time to get into range and start blasting.
First reaction - WHAT?

Second reading - first, if all my ships start moving after turning 30 degrees, my frigs will be out of the cap's way before he starts moving. Besides, caps already crash into your fleet, I cannot see a difference here.

Then, this part:

I rather keep them moving while turning as it takes a while for a capship to turn 30 degerees which gives the enemy enough time to get into range and start blasting.
Oh, let me get this straight. You don't want your cap ship to turn around and flee, because that would give the enemy time to approach and start shooting.
No, you PREFER YOUR CAP SHIP TO FLY INTO THE ENEMY CAP AND GIVE HIM A HUG. How is that better?! The enemy starts hurting you SOONER because your cap MOVES TOWARDS HIM.

This is the basic problem people see in my suggestion. "Oh noes, my shipz are gonna sit like duckz while the enemys pew pew them! Nooo!!". At the same time they forget that those same ships would normally fly into the enemy fleet, crash into his starbase and so on and so forth. Either way you're in front of your enemy, the only difference is whether you turn on the spot or serve yourself on a gilded plate under the enemy's nose before retreating.

modificate
I'm not natively English and I reserve the right to make a mistake now and then, by accidentally typing modify in a way I thought the word in Polish (which has the "cate" part in the verb).
My English is still way better than some of the english-speaking users' around the forum.