delete please

delete please

Yes, excellent point.  The only reason why TB isn't FotM (read: overpowered) is because he lacks a basic functionality all other DGs have.  

Actually it's the HP stacking.

TRIPLE POST  SMITE!

Annoying, hopefully a mod will erase em.'

Each post is was slightly different than the last, too!

Yeah, I kept getting the forumsplosion message so I had to retype it when I got back to the page, and only the last one showed up immediately. 

Let's not get too sidetracked by it, though it was pretty goofy looking.  Anyway, I disagree with this:

I disagree there, I think TB's base damage is extremely solid and if he doesn't have his casts interrupted he can burn through high HP pools, his autoattack damage is excellent when he can sit there and just be a turret because of the attack speed and damage boosts (15% attack speed and +30 damage), and he only needs one helmet which means he's got an extra equipment slot for HP stacking.  Also with the 15% run speed improvement you could get away without even having any speed boosting items for a second HP item if you wanted to (though I can't imagine skipping on journeyman treads).

Honestly, for a DG which has higher autoattack damage than most, higher spell damage than most, and which also effectively has a free item slot for extra armor/damage why does HP stacking hurt so much?  I really don't believe it does.

You're only looking at fire.  With fire, has has no debuffs - only damage.  Only damage is beaten by HP stacking.  He has no escape abilities besides a passive movespeed increase and movespeed increases are NOT the counter to slows as detailed in other topics, so many heroes can manhandle him if they can survive getting to him, which isn't a problem most of the time.

I don't find myself getting manhandled when enemy DGs catch up to my fire TB. Normally I'll have at least Boots of Speed and hopefully a Wand of Speed with my passive speed buffs and that allows me to rocket away from a fight, even if I am slowed moderately. Now if I get hit by Mines 4, Maim, MoB, etc all at once, then that'll usually knock me down to about normal speed which will still allow me to get away if I didn't push too deep into enemy space.

I also only tend to do about medium class HP items, focusing on speed and mana more than anything else for quick hit and run tactics.

With speed debuffs capped at 1/3, slows should be easier to counter with speed items.

Stay on topic and keep this bumped PLEASE

I think along with auto-attack, switching from ice to fire needs some improvement as well.  It doesn't make sense why it's so easy to switch from fire to ice, but it takes almost 3 times as long to switch the other way.

There must a reason to this rhyme, because QoT can switch on the run no problems. If they are worried about the potential high AA damage from a Fire TB, then they can just decrease the base AA damage while in fire mode.

Amen bro...

Gotta love the couch strategists.  Tell me once again how bad hp stacking is for TB when you go against my 4 item hp/armor stacked TB with sustained 400 dps unmodified by armor.  And on top he can still move at 8,4 speed.  Gotta love those pew-pew autoattack DGs that get their dps reduced by 60% against a 6+K hp behemot and wander wth went wrong!

Oh how I wish the bug is fixed and the cries commence.

There is a forum post about it here, the fix had him either using ice attack animation (which creator said looks stupid), or no animation at all where he just runs and the fire bolts shoot out of the tip of his staff.  Haven't presonally tried it...

How is his damage beaten by HP stacking while his opponent's is not?He has a 15% run speed boost. How many DGs really have a 15% snare?

Generally speaking late game when HP stacking reaches the point we seem to be talking about boots of the traveler are enough to save you from almost anything. Mines + Maim + Mark of the Betrayer is about the only thing that'll stop you and if you use a wand of speed then even that isn't enough of a snare to hold you down. Then you have guys with the raw speed to catch you like EB and UB and their fast attack speed or minions are going to proc those boots as well.

I guess I just don't understand what you're talking about at all, because very few DGs have true escape moves. The only real escapes are Oak's shield, EB's bat swarm/mist, and then TB's deep freeze. Other than that and perhaps one or two abilities I overlooked* DGs depend on speed, raw HP, and foresight to escape, and TB (should) have all three.

As for damage, please elaborate on what you mean by his being negated by HP stacking and why other DGs don't suffer the same issue.


*of course there's special items like teleport scrolls and the cloak of night as well

Sorry about the block of text at the end there, I can't get it to do line breaks for some reason.
-Actually nm I was able to brute force it with html tags

I really don't get this... People are complaining about this because they are only using half of TB's skillset. When will people stop exclusively using fire abilities? At the moment Fire and Ice are pretty well balanced between one another (even though everyone is lazy and plays Fire) but if this change proceeds then Fire would become more dominant than Ice, and you would wipe out 1/2 a Demigod from the game. The Ice abilities are some of the most unique in the game yet people want to kill them off, probably the same people who want more Demigods/Abilities etc. More Demigods isn't going to help if they are just the same boring DPS people seem to want here (Fire TB).

Ever thought about putting points into Permafrost or Frost Nova? Ever thought about using an ice ability? Ever heard of form swapping? If you're simply walking around in Fire mode permanently (regardless of your chosen skills), then you're not doing enough to begin with.

I can't imagine that this is an intended feature since that means an opponent's strategy can be to simply fight until their hp is around 200 or so and run if they know the TB is out of mana, ie early game.

There is nothing wrong with using just Fire or just Ice.  They are both highly specialized and very good at what they do.  Besides switching form is a big no late game.  For example consider that my fireball is at <5s cooldown, nova on 10s.  And I need almost 3s to cast all my skills, so by the time I have, half the cooldowns have passed.  And people need to undestand that Fire TB needs to move a lot - there is just no time switch forms.

Besides, games never last long enough for a hybrid build to stand a chance.

Good god, we need replays...

>Besides, games never last long enough for a hybrid build to stand a chance.

 

...I've won a huge chunk of my games with hybrid Torch.

 

Regardless, this bug is pretty crippling in some situations where any other demigod would have no problem. It also makes Fire Aura almost completely useless.

You have good enough teammates that compensate for your lack of power mid game so you can concentrate on control.  I can see how Hybrid can be a beast but he really needs to get to 20 for all his synergies to click into place.  So tell me how many games honestly get past level 12 before already being won?

And yet, TB hybrid imo has weaker control than Oak, so you might as well just be playing that.

I think the main point we're missing here, is we're not comparing TB AA to Hammer Slam.

 

People are complaining because you can't autoattack while moving in fire mode, did you not read the post?Why post this about TB?  Why not make a post about how much you dislike spit only builds or ooze only builds and see how well that goes over?  Whatever build people use has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  If you're a hybrid build and you want to fireball and then chase people that should be an option.So why even post here?  Either you're admitting that fire and ice are NOT balanced against each other well because ice only stands up when compared to fire's inability to autoattack or you shouldn't worry about fire being fixed because you believe they're well-balanced anyway.Hybrid builds are the laziest builds...  see how easy it is to make nonsense statements?Looks ilke they're not well balanced then afterall, did you even read what you wrote a sentence ago?This is just trolling.  No one here is trying to "kill" anything, they're trying to get a possible bug fixed and you're trying to villify them for it.So you... don't want more DGs? Your opinions don't reflect the sentiment of the community at large.

Translation:  I don't like your build so I don't want a bug (which also affects my build btw) to be fixed so you have to play like me.

 

 

You're an ass.

Fire TB = Straight up in your face damage, auto attacking is part of this, however its broken.

Ice TB = Control.

 

Clearly the AA issue is a bug. Considering a fire TB has 2 main nukes and 1 has a pretty sizeable CD. Yes AAing on a TB is broke.