Capital Ships vs Frigates/Cruisers

Nope.

Well, not in a stand up fight. Frigates and cruisers have far more damage and health for the same amount of popcap. So in a gunnery fight, no, not even close.

However, there are pretty funky ability combos you can pull off with capital ships. The Advent are especially good at it. Depending on just how badly outnumbered you are, it is possible to win with abilities - at least against the AI. Humans will generally be harder to trick.

You want the caps for the abilities and to counter culture.
The other ships will be the firepower of your fleet.

Against AI cap ships can be a help.

Against an attentive human they are LAUGHABLE.

I have seen a group of 15 top tier frigates or LRMs take down level 10 Cap ships in less than 30 seconds.

IMO cap ships need a higher levels to make them worth while.

Caps need more firepower...I would like to see more off a BSG set up where they are actually important.

Cap ships are ok on firepower. A better hull repair rate and or more armor would be better depending on race. I agree on the level cap should maybe be increased to 15 or 20 with adding in a level 4 of the abilites. The other problem with the current lvling of ships they don't gain really anything with hull points , shields, mitigation overall. They just gain firepower. A lvl 10 cap can be nasty firepower but will still pop like a lvl 1 ship.

Most space type games that have ships gain experience have seen many many many battles before capping out this should be the case here to to make them even more of a target by having a way higher cap plus make it worth its weight in supplies and cost. A capital ship should be a investment overtime instead of its current wasted price.

Ah, 15 LRMs would certainly cost more than a cap ship. I'm not so eager about fiddling with cap ship numbers, as they have so many other abilities besides raw firepower already.

IMHO, cap ships are worth the cost if they are micro-ed and survive battles. Also, in defensive positions with repair bays, they are pretty tough to knock out.

If you think naval tactics, cap ships are like battleships and aircraft carriers. They should have escorts and rarely charge into battle.

And, what does it mean? You need escorts for your caps! Nobody who knows what he is doing sends a lvl 10 capital flying alone but only with a decent amount of protection. I also seriously doubt that 15 LRM's will tear down a lvl 10 cap both on the same research leveldown in 30 seconds.

And the +x% to hit bonus from an Akkan for example is everything else but laughable against AI's and humans. They are powerful but not in the stupid superunit kind of way. You have to use them the right way.



I suggest you carefully look at the stats before you post such things because cap health, shield and mitigration increases with every level and they make a difference.

1. The OP was asking about doing just that - using nothing but capital ships.

2. It's not really an issue of escorts - there's nothing you can do to stop an enemy fleet focussing on your level 10 capship. By late game fleets are easily big enough to pop a capship in a dozen seconds or less. Forward movement is too fast and turning speed is too slow - by the time you see your capship getting hit it's already way too late to run. How much value did you get out of your +x% to hit then? High level / high value capships are toast. Others survive only becuase they are generally ignored until last.

Stuff like Vengence or Volatile Nanites - good against swarms - can have even late-game impact, but in general any troublesome caship just gets popped.

IMO against the AI capships are fine. Against humans they are... useful. A bit. In small numbers.

Capital ships and capital ship levels -really- ought to be cheaper if they're expected to die so easily.

Hmmm... I think caps would have to hold back and let the frigates jump first. Let the fleets thin out a bit before engaging.

The other tactic I'm thinking is to use caps to sneak attack and go after different planets if the opponent has massed his/her ships. Force his/her forces to split up, or play cat and mouse.

Its funny but I haven't lost a single cap ship, but I always have them in a fleet.

1 Battleship
1 Carrier
4 Frigate Carriers
6-10 Heavy Cruisers
6-10 Light
6 flak
6 LRM
2 Command frigates
2 Robot frigate

I hardly even loose my light frigates after taking a planet.

Set your fleet to hold position before you jump to the enemy planet and then mid jump launch your bombers and fighters. This will draw any mobile defenders to you, out of range from planet defenses and allow the fighters\bombers to attack the stationary defenses. This also ensures your fleet stays close to the edge of the gravity well so that they can retreat quickly if needed.

But some of the caps abilities really come into play during the main battle.

Why would I spend all the resourses and time it takes to research an increased cap ship limit, and all the resourses and pop cap on the ship itself so I can let the frigates jump first and be 'thinned out'? Once you have a few caps out, the cost to add more is rediculous compared to the cost of raw frigates.

I would save time and resourses by just building a dozen LRMs (48 pop), get faster flying and jumping ships, with better range and DPS. This is a better fit for any general combat, or for the cat and mouse tactics you mentioned. Abilities are nice, but damage is king and speed can be the best defense of all.

Caps are better for cat and mouse because they can bomb planets, steal resources, affect culture, etc. It creates more of an impact than just destroying defenses.

Perhaps the problem is that LRFs do too much damage to caps, which isn't their designed purpose. But I posted another thread for that.

Only one cap can steal resourses. Cat and mouse implies hit and run, one or two caps isn't going to be able to bomb a planet or effect culture signifigantly before defense ships rally, and would need to destroy static defenses to do that anyway. If you're hitting them where they are not, I think the same pop spent on siege/lrm/flak would do more damage and be quicker to get in and out. Even with no siege frigates to bomb the planet, it's not just defenses you're destroying, it's also your foe's mines, broadcast towers, trade ports, etc, which is what hit and run is all about. Siegeing a planet is not hit and run, that's a full on assault.

Also, to the OP's question of 6 caps vs. a 'mob' of frigates, the important thing to remember is it's not so much a battle between a mob of frigates against 6 caps. It's more appropriate to think of it as a series of 6 battles with a mob of frigates against one cap ship. It doesn't matter what level it is, that cap is going down quick. Pick the right one to kill first and the 6 cap fleet unravels pretty fast. You might get away with it with micro vs. the AI, but never against a decent human player.

Thanks Habadacus. That's all I needed to know.

Habadacus, by "cat and mouse," I mean a longer attack than "hit and run," which implies leaving immediately. Different style of attack, but in terms of sheer damage, yeah, frigates are hard to beat. Which makes sense, otherwise caps would be overpowering.

But I think this is really an issue only with LRF vs. caps. Any other ships vs. caps shouldn't be quite as lopsided.