Bovi has the right idea. It definitely requires quick clicking, but the Antoraks have the advantage. When a ship is phased, it can't even be selected, which means the Vasari player can already have his mouse hovering over the Dunov icon to hit it right when it comes out, while the TEC player will have to select the Dunov, then the ability, then click on the target.

As for antimatter, I've managed to keep 3 capital ships almost completely locked down long enough to destroy 2 of them (I mis-clicked on a passing fighter wing so one managed to jump out) without worrying about antimatter. It can't be done for too long, but it can be done. And with 2 Antoraks they should be able to do it long enough.

with the two anties going gong-ho on the dunov and a compliment of frigates to assist, damage shouldnt be a problem. even if the dunov somehow miraculously survives its not going to have enough health to stay alive for much longer, even with two dunovs spamming shield regen to it. what is SR's cooldown time anyway?

12 seconds for either 400, 800 or 1200 shield points restored.
Thats 33 66 or 99 damage per second (coming through to the shields) that you need for a single dunov that spams the ability to outshoot it. (about 4, 7 or 10 frigates to do that kind of damage without shield mitigation)
Mititagtion will be at that amount of ships focus firing at least be at 50%, so you need at least 8, 14 or 20 frigates to counter the ability. Innate shield regeneration is 3 per second (and more as it levels up) so you have to counter that aswell, since the longer the shields are up the longer the ship has time to regenerate them.

if its in constant stream! the abilities regen though is along the lines of some dozen seconds, means you only need a handful of frigs to counter it. besides the two antoraks will be providing fire support. now, if both players are micromanaging the battle (aka the antoraks have locked down two dunovs) then taking two out succesively wont be an issue, the last one then is simply easy pickings..

I´m not going to take a stance here as i have not yet seen this tactic, so i don´t know how it works.
But here are some numbers so you people arguing can support your points.
These are actual damage done to ships (armor classes already included) before shield mitigation (if its shields) or armor (if its hull) come into play:

1 Scout does 1,5 damage (2 Supply) [antiheavy damage]
1 LRM does without upgrades 8,25 damage against capships (4 Supply) [antimedium damage]
1 Light Frigate does without upgrades 6,65 damage against caps (5 Supply) [antiheavy damage]
1 Kodiak does 13,5 damage (10 supply) [composite damage]

1 Vasari torpedo Frigate does 13 damage (6 Supply) [capitalship damage]
1 Vasar Light Frigate does 5,25 damage (7 Supply) [antiheavy damage]
1 Vasari heavy cruiser does 15 damage (12 Supply) [composite damage]
all values per second

This is the damage done to caps, other ships are of course different as they possess other armor classes, all capships use "CAPITALSHIP" Armor

we just did some analysis of our own... sounds like you guys are only considering the fleet supply as criteria, in which case DUH 3 level 3 dunovs are going to outdo only 20 LRMs, thing is that at that cost I could pump out an extra 15 or so LRMs, or if I have to buy a fleet point upgrade, and THEN buy the extra 10 LRMs, which then puts me at an advantage (especially with phasemissiles, which seem to do severe damage if they push for long enough even with no upgrades)

the analysis appears to be the issue here, not the actual gameplay.

his arrogance aside.

Thats not exactly Fair at all

Here is a report

1 Level 3 Marauder and 1 Level 4 Marauder

VS

1 Level 3 Dunov and 1 Level 4 Dunov

Dunovs win without a loss.

13 missile frigates in FP cant beat the same Dunovs.

the One test where the Dunovs fail,

13 missile frigates against 2 level 1 Dunovs. At level 1, the Dunovs are hardly average capital ships, and while they lost in a fight that early, they scale horrendously in terms of cost efficiency. This test doesn't take into account that you can start the game with a Dunov at level 3 for free.

We didn't get to try Evacuators yet. We need to test resource quantity versus the level 3s and above. We all know Capital Ships are grossly inefficient at level 1.

Frankly Schod is the one with analysis issues. Because FP is more important in games past the extreme early phase.

Also I saved a replay; but we will make/save more with better/more tests.

Also the Frigates cost more if you count the 2 labs required to build them. Which Granted isn't much or a big issue. But Timing is, and by that point how would you ever see 2 level 1s? you will see a level 3 and a level 2 versus your level 3 whatever and some frigates.

Next Test should be the resource and fleet value of 1 Dunov at level 3, and force the other player to take the same and we each get a level 4 cap... obviously the Dunov team takes a level 4 Dunov.

That would be far more accurate than your 2 levels 1s are counterable

More importantly, since FP is a finite limit and resources aren't, it really needs to be balanced. (Resources increase over time, FPs shouldn't...)

Gaunt your theory looks like a practice dummy for a trachiotemy...

yes, YES FP are stable, however with the amount of resources it costs to upgrade 1 dunov once (let alone 2 several times each) is enough to get an extra 50-70 fleet points, which in turn is enough to get another 10-13 LRMs, which can kick two dunov's ass in a flinch.

we had two valid tests admitedly, the antoraks (which I said before would fail) and then the LRMs, the dunovs fail MISERABLY against LRMs but succeed rather well against the antoraks (damage change might be in order) mostly because the antoraks require split second timing faster than your computer is able to recognize "ah! need to use shield restore on that dunov" because the ability cannot be placed down again before the dunovs have a chance to heal

now, to say that the 13 v 2 high level dunovs was in any way valid is complete bs, according to that theory upgrading them to lvl 10 would have required just as many fleetpoints, and therefore is just as easy and valid in the midgame time. W R O N G. again your analysis is flawed if you stick only to FP as your indicator of "affordability" of the unit. certainly in midgame money is a much bigger issue than fleetpoints (as fleetpoints can be upgraded for extremely cheap, where upgrading cap ships is damn expensive)

gaunt you're the one with arrogance issues here, not me. I have inflated ego issues, means I've been right the whole damn time.

note: factoring cost into the dunov test for a 1v1 I should have had 2 more LRMs to go, include the leveling up of them both to 3 and I would have gotten at least 2 more fleet slots up, then supplemented with approx 15 or so LRMs, again more than enough to kill the dunovs with ease.

Yeah, but there is a very finite limit on the number of times you can upgrade a planet. Once for asteroids, two or there times for most planets. And, quite simply, the number of LRM frigates required to take out the double/triple dunov comes with a very hefty price tag in and of itself. Furthermore, trying to take out Dunov's in that manner requires a completely different fleet composition than for any other setup.

Yes, you need to adjust fleet composition to match your targets -- bring more flaks in against carrier heavy foes, for example -- but the Dunov imbalance lies in the fact that it requires far more ships (in fleet costs) and those ships have to be chosen specifically to take out the Dunov as opposed to other vessels.

Sure, LRM frigates are nasty all around... but not nasty enough to forgo capship support, unless you have Dunov only opponents running around, at which point your entire fleet has to change to be able to harm, much less defeat, the Dunovs.

All things said... we've run tests proving our point; you haven't. In fact, they've run tests using every strategy you've suggested, and those tests support our position. Either run some actual tests of your own for empirical evidence, or stop jawing nonsense at us.



Upgrading capships isn't all that expensive, fleet points is cheaper... but not by a whole lot.

by the time those are maxed out T-Dunov strategy is outdated. by FAR

no, no it doesnt. its just as expensive as getting the dunovs (actually, probably quite cheaper.)

LRMs is not a stretch, god some of the best players use them almost exclusively.

if you're facing someone who isnt going pure dunov, then this isnt a concern whatsoever because by mid game they wont be using triple dunovs!

I just ran VERY conclusive tests, ones that hold to a much better standard then the garbage that has been pouring out of this thread! my god, since when do we consider a 12k g investment the same as one that IS BARELY EVEN HALF THAT?
I stake much more faith in the empiricle steadfastness of intelligent design than the meagre, sadly performed tests that you're describing. thats WITH your euphamising.

upgrading 2 cap ships to level 3 is a whooping investment of 5500g, buying ONE fleet upgrade to your homeplanet maxes out at about 1.5k, if you have to go insane buying things. now that extra 4500g I can go about spending on the extra frigs nescessary to take you down, or tech upgrades, even another capital ship just to mess with you. to base your analysis SOLELY on fleetpoints makes your argument completely utterly TOTALLY invalid in almost every sense of the word. considering the timeframe in which you guys are claiming this strategy is effective, we should both be ignoring the effects of fleetpoints entirely, excluding solely their cost in credits.

Ron, dont make me prove this to you. we CAN test this together if you want.

Eh, feel free to test it with gauntlet -- he's the one with the micro skills, not I.

From what you are saying Schem, haven't you proved the initial assertion that triple Dunovs (or more) require two to three times their fp to take down? Is that balanced?

Are you saying that a combination of cap ships which require two or three times more fp to stop is balanced because it costs a lot? I think you forget that the extra metal and crystal in making LRMs isn't free so on that basis alone your point is flawed. Also the time factor is trying to make a fleet of that size is an issue you need to consider.

I suppose at the end of the day, it is multiplayer games which will prove the point conclusively one way or the other... until you've been on the receiving end I don't think we will convince you otherwise.

thats who I already tested it with.

I don't see where you say the antoraks would fail. I see you saying the dunovs would fail.


Schod. Shut up. You have said nothing of how you come at your results. Gauntlet has provided the way he came at his.

I have so far ignored every post of yours, as I know it will only be vile nonsense. You say you need to be "vocal" to be heard here, apparently equalling SHOUTING and insulting everyone for no good reason. Every discussion on these boards has been calm until you come along and insult someone. You insult everyone on these boards that try to give reasonable feedback that you're not entirely in agreement with, which seems to be everyone in general. I can't understand what you gain from it. But if you're right that you need to be an asshole to get a point across to the developers, I think I prefer not to. It's not worth trying to improve the results of my meager 35$ investment if it means being subjected to you throwing your tantrums around for whatever reason you might have. I don't know how the developers can stand having you here and destroying their forums' atmosphere.

you're refering to something else, gaunt insisted that we do a 2 antorak, no frig test. I told him that without frig support the antoraks would definitively fail, I was right.

odd, that seems to be a pattern.

I ran a test with gaunt. the test proved that in a 1v1 of equal resource and FP spending the dunovs would fail doing a measly 30% damage to a group of LRMs (9 survived of 13). what you guys are toting as conclusive tests are wildly innacurate swayed points.

I have remained quite calm, save when people start denying my well constructed tests in favor of something that has absolutely no viable standing. now as for my "vile nonsense", who is the one who wrote a whole 1 paragraph flame? bovi calm down, we dont need you shredding this thread.
bovi, if you really want to push the point that I've degraded the argument, find a case in which I openly insulted someone. thing is I havent done so. all I've done is the occasional mock of people's test (hence the gaunt trachiotemy pun) but thats far from anything derogatory or controversial. ok fine, there was one place in which I insulted Gaunt, but that was incredibally mild, I was insulted openly first, and I even reciprocated with qualifying his insult. so that hardly can be counted as a "temper tantrum"

people have raised a point, I'm trying to adress it and see what/if theres anything wrong. my tests which are far more concrete and thorough, have shown no concern for any imbalance, let alone the frankenstein of a problem that you guys see. I even put myself at several minor disadvantages (13 instead of 14 LRMs, letting him use fighters even though normal players either go 2 bombers or 1 of each etc.) that could easily have added up to my failure. when I succeeded I claimed that there is no valid concern for peoples points as is, nothing I've said here is personal. I'm just pointing out that people are clinging to "bad science", poor testing methods that accentuate their own point.

what is needed here is twofold: one you guys need to stop taking my posts so personally when I have never ever said anything to that effect. I've had enough of being unfairly bombarded with ad hominem nonsense when you guys cannot salvage your own point. Second: you all need to refine your tests, yes its more likely to find 3 level 3 dunovs going at it, but to justify that an "equal" counter would be equal only in fleet points is bullballs. make your tests better and then I'll consider their validity. until then your points are completely unfounded.

what you guys have now is smoke in the wind, I gave gaunt the chance to prove to me that its a solid issue, and all that accomplished was a confirmation of my own theory: that your variables are far too constricted to even resemble solid evidence.

bovi, I expect a three page single space typed apology, signed by at least three basketball pros and a dead musician monkey for monday. now, if thats all, class dismissed.

Wow, I never thought I would get this kind of response when I started using the double and triple Dunovs a couple of weeks back.

Hmmm, okay I am trying to reason out where Schem is going with this and the larger implications of his claims. Basically, I am trying to do a 'get to the point' summery of Schem's findings. So, correct me Schem if you think I am off on this. Hehe, try to do it in a friendly, polite way if possible.

*Note that my next statements only relate to Empires that are similar in size, resources and fleet points...how else can you do a fair test?

In the late game stage where credit is practically unending and FP are more critical, Dunov packs don't matter because the firepower in engagements is too great to compensate against with shield restore. When a cap dies in under 4 seconds (usually from LRM salvos), you can no longer micro the shield restore. Nor can you let the auto cast do it for you, because it sucks!

In the mid game stage, LRM packs are still more than a match for 2 or 3 dunovs in a group.

In the early game stage, you can research LRM and build a fleet of them prior to your opponent being able to make 2 Dunovs and traning them up to lvl 3.

Is that about accurate?

almost exactly, theres also the issue of cost in which LRMs excell.

Nice cherry picking there gauntlet. Instead of taking stupid pills before picking tests, think about an actual game and what would happen.

The worst case scenario I can see is tec vs vasari and the tec player went with a dunov as the flagship while the vasari player took the carrier(piss poor damage that). With the magnetize ability on the flagship to take out the bombers right off, you should be able to all but neutralize the carrier as a high damage force, meaning it will be more the remaining fleet that has to deal with them. You should still be scouting though, and as soon as you see a dunov is the flagship, start preparing for it. An evacuator would be my preference I think.

Consider the worst case scenario you can come up with, make relatively equal expenditures to counter that scenario, and see what happens. No moron counter either, two marauders... They'll almost lose to scout ships in the damage department for fucks sake. Do something intelligent. You know, like you would if you were actually playing a game and you saw a guy start with a dunov?

As for schod, I have to say he's being pretty polite if still sarcastic as usual. I'm kinda pissed at the overboard sensationalism you guys are stooping to here, but his posts are damned moderate considering the absurdity. Not sure which alternative is worse, either you actually believe this horseshit and really would try to kill two dunovs with two marauders or you're just doing these absurd tests to get it nerfed because you don't like having to think about a scenario. Either way, this is a thread with small merit in that dunovs seriously spank the shit out of a lot of fleet combinations while sucking monkey nuts for actual fleet support. It's a shame that it's being so poorly communicated.

Also taking into account that in mid-game (before FP is maxed out), FP can't the only consideration, as FP upgrades are still available. Putting resources into that + producing more LRMs to compare reasonably to the resource cost of leveled Dunovs brings them into a favorable position. Basically, FP for FP, no -- LRMs don't compare. But when it matters, credits aren't unimportant, and the tri-dunovs will be pricey. Pricey enough, in fact, that the LRM player will have the resources to plunk down a FP upgrade, giving him more FP to play with than the Dunov player. With those extra FP, use the remaining resources to fill out your LRM fleet, which, while not having the same FP value as the Dunovs, is comparable in *real* cost.

At least, that's how I read his stuff. (and, quite frankly, it makes sense -- FP is the most important, but the other resources aren't *unimportant* at the level you're describing, as upgrades are likely still around)

Wow Psychoak, why all the hostility and rudeness towards Gauntlet? He is only reporting his experiences for the benefit of all of us.

Because he's being a tard? There are real concerns with the dunov, they aren't whether or not it can be defeated by really stupid fleet compositions. Instead of bickering with schod over whether poorly chosen tests are fair because he didn't get to spend twice as much money, he should admit that they really suck as examples and get better ones. Stupidity by choice is irritating.

And no I can't test them myself, it will be another six hours or so before this idiotic connection is stable enough for games.

thing is that FP for FP they absolutely crush dunov butt, unless you're speaking of Fzuber upgraded dunovs, in which case no they dont. but at that point credits are the decider, not FP. here we return to the fact that LRMs win.

yeah, be rude towards bovi. he's the one going spaz up to the wall.

that being said gaunt did refute my testimony (and therefore, absolute truth)... that cannot go unpunished.

I don't think bovi can help making stupid posts, why bother jumping on him for them?