Tactics

In effort to assist Frogboy with his AI improvements, please post below any tactics you use that the AI does not, or any tactics you see the AI using that you think could be improved or should be abandoned.

 

Please proceed your post with a number, and let's try to keep the numbers continuous from one post to the next so its easy to navigate through them and/or discuss them - although lets try to keep discussion here to a minimum.

 

1) Using constructors to extend range, particularly in preparation for war, and guarding said constructors.

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Reply #1 Top

 

(adding a couple more just as examples on how to post)

 

2) Have the AI use military scout ships that are fast with long range scanning

3) Clearing out enemy fleets before moving transports in, and not weakening fleets by putting a transport in it

Reply #2 Top

4)They actually do starbase for range at least, but they wait until after they've declared war to start expanding towards someone they can't reach, which means you're rarely surprised by a non-immediate neighbor as they can end up waiting a very long time to actually get to you.  Planning ahead would be very nice.

 

5)Using multiple damages and armor types to counter attackers.  The AI can only handle one, apparently, it makes destroying them late game exceedingly easy, as you'll load up 500 attack and defense on each fleet, but the 100 points you have in beams will end up doing more than the 400 in missiles because your tard opponent took zero defense against them.  When the AI puts out large and huge hulls, they should always have at least one of each defense.

 

6)Proper fleet specialization.  Non fleet centerpieces should never be wasting space on sensors and other things they wont need late game.  I run around with extended range, combat buffed fleets that have 15+ sensor range all the time, but it's just one ship doing the boosting to vision, durability, and damage.

Reply #3 Top

But if that one ship doing the boost to vision, durability, and damage gets shot down. That fleet is crippled. Unless it has other fleets in the area to protect it. Such is the risks of putting all eggs into one basket tactic.

 

And then there was one time where I had war declared on me by drengin empire which was on other side of gigantic map. I set up an daisy chain of starbases and slowly reached his empire. It was an 50+ turn affair just to get all those starbases set up, he probably saw me coming with his long ranged survey ships.

 

Here's where he failed, he didn't set up fleets at the engagement area of where my ships would've finally entered his borders. But again, I was playing on Normal difficulty and still learning the game so it probably don't count for much. End result of him not being ready to meet me, he lost all his planets to me as my fleets tore him apart. They were all scattered. Actually, it probably took me 100+ turns just to prepare because I assembled alot of tiny/escort ships to support the limited amount of frigates/battleships together with them. It was bit silly to see them be completely unprepared for my fleets and on their home territory >.> And that was with me checking the surrounding systems around the daisy chain starbases with my survey ships just to be sure that drengin isn't sneaking a fleet past my watch.

Reply #4 Top

If your one ship with all the vision and boosts is shot down, you lost your fleet, or you set them up exceedingly poorly.  The ship with all the boosts should be a support ship or capital depending on if it has weapons, neither of which should ever be a priority target.  If you haven't got any escorts to absorb damage, then you're building fleets wrong and wasting your ships.  This is something the AI doesn't do in general, they build ships, not fleets.

 

Capitals are the backbone, high damage, high value, escorts are the screen, maximizing durability over firepower.  If you have a fleet of just those two, every escort will die before they target the first capital.  You can run zero defense capitals and do quite splendidly, absorbing damage on low attack, high defense escorts while they dish out the pain.  The AI does very little to take advantage of the combat mechanics and is thus easily defeated at an equal tech level even when they've got the right defense for your damage.  They'll send eight escorts into a battle by themselves, it's terrible.

Reply #5 Top

The last number i saw was 6

 

7) Combat may be more interesting than in GC2, but i also think it is too easy to avoid losses. What i think will help the AI is to bring back some degree of crossover defense. What i personally think would be more fun is to have shield defense only, but have 3 shield types, each one is especially effective against one type of attack, but also does work a little bit against the others. That seems much more realistic to me..... and the visual effects of shields in combat never gets old!!

8) expanding on the above,,, what would make the AI very effective in combat is if shields defend equally well against all attacks. How defense specialization will work comes in to play only regarding how durable the shields are. So if you have shields specialized against missiles, you will repel 100% of the initial beam attack, but your shields will collapse much faster than if it was a missile attack.

 

So that way you know that when you go into combat against that powerful AI fleet, its not going to be a cakewalk, no matter what.

Reply #6 Top

7 & 8 sound very interesting. I would love to try out those changes.

9) skirmish, rather than all out war. I have recently been experimenting with small scale conflicts. Declare war, hit a couple choice targets, bribe my way to peace. Rebuild, give gifts, repair rep, do it to a second enemy. This works best with #10 below. I will say, this is my biggest wish of all changes for the AI. The player has to use bribes to end a war and sometimes it's not possible at all. But if we could have a state of skirmish, or border conflict whole new areas of strategy open up. This one change allows the threat "remove your starbase from my sphere of influence or I will" to be a real, legitimate threat, without becoming "remove your starbase from my territory or you and I will fight to the death". It opens the door for an AI to come from behind by making small gains via skirmishes without provoking a stronger player into wiping them out. And it allows the player the same.

10) target empire strength. If my enemy's highest power score is from his fleet, but he has junk industry, kill the ships. It will take him a long time to recover. If he has both, ignore his fleets, they are expensive and replaceable, hit the world that built the most ships. If his strength is tech, hit the worlds that have many tiles but no shipyard or that build fewest ships. Don't just hit closest spot, Hi him where it hurts. For the player to use this on the AI we need to be carefully observant. The AI at higher levels could use knowledge of player planets to know where to target the attacks. This crosses into cheaty turf, so maybe an icon on the side of a planet showing its focus? If there's not one already, I can't tell what any of those are except the morale one.

11) early influence land grabs. Drop cultural bases where they will expand, and where they will cut off expansion. Typically one or two tiles inside the enemy leading edge is perfect for unclaimed space or on the edge for a contested border. I'll edit with screenshots. Claiming map edges on the backside of a rival rather than just fighting their leading edge is also brutally effective. The longer influence builds the stronger it is, so it is better to lay them down early and collect "interest" that try to brute force it later when they are entrenched. 

Detailed tactics by proposed AI difficulty: I admit I don't know how to do weighting on this, but here is how I wage culture war during the expansion phase of the game with visuals.

Initial State: Imagine AI is red (Drengin) and player is purple (Yor) http://imgur.com/8iN3D2Q off screen drengin has one colony ship coming and there is a planet just south of the constructor out of view (you'll see it in the next image).

Weak Beginner: http://imgur.com/YAxjPcD By dropping a culture starbase right where the constructor is, the situation will stabilize thus. Player has control of the southern uncolonized planet influence lines will meet and stabilize in the middle until the planet is colonized where the yor will begin winning. If Drengin try to colonize the planet they are three tiles into yor influence and risk losing the planet to culture flip. This might be too weak even though it is stronger than what the AI does currently.

Strong Beginner/Easy: http://imgur.com/NdJ1B5f By placing the constructor instead between the duranium and dead world, two tiles into Yor influence this is how it stabilizes. Drengin has control of the uncolonized world but Yor colonizing would move the lines and there is low risk of culture flip. But if yor is too slow and Drengin takes it, the yor planet is slowly going to be pressured. North, however, all three separate yor spheres of influence will merge, making a solid firm block. This is a good move for the Drengin AI but not a great move, what I would recommend for beginner or easy.

Normal+: Remember in the initial state, where the survey ship was? What if the Drengin AI moves the constructor past the yor front lines. http://imgur.com/P2lMCIV  Now look how this stabilizes. The player's southern sphere of influence is cut off. those red lines show tiles of player influence that were taken over on the action of placing the base. The north west player sphere is far from a planet, it will exert less pressure than the culture base, but the southern planet will push into the drengin starbase unless it is reinforced. Drengin AI influence will not only split the southern planet off, but also it will expand west into unclaimed territory, blocking the yor player from multiple stars as indicated by the colored arrows. In the middle, the purple line shows where the north east influence will meet, it's hard to predict who will push harder I'm guessing Yor player but not by much. What is important is the lip areas where red drengin influence barely extends past the purple yor.  If it grows faster, even 1 tile faster, it will start to surround the yor. If the yor gets the first expansion there will be a tie and the diagonal line will extend off giving drengin a big swath of space. This is quite a strong attack.

Best Move: instead of dropping the base in between the two spheres of influence, take advantage of the weak north west and drop it three tiles into yor territory. http://imgur.com/yQA7DkN  Now the yor player is pretty screwed unless he can get new sources of influence down into this conflict. The middle area looks almost identical, but look west and south. Thanks to a nearby planet the southern yor influence line is already at its maximum growth. A Drengin colony on that unclamed southern world might have enough influence to survive without culture flipping (but it a risk) and that would definitely overwhelm the yor player's southern world. In the north west, this placement has clamed more than double the tiles already and it is not extending in parallel diagonal lines, it is an expanding triangle that has cut off the yor from two of four western stars initially and the third is going to fall once the yor southern planet is flipped. With another contstructor closer to the north western most star the whole western flank of the yor sphere of influence can be rolled over and their core worlds squeezed from both sides. But the Drengin war fleet is on the Yor's eastern flank so the Yor need to defend on two flanks and two separate tactics both culture and military. With just one or two constructors the Yor player is surrounded and has lost access to a huge chunk of territory. If there are other players to the west the Yor cannot meat them without crossing Drengin lines cutting them off from trade opportunities.

Right now the AI basically just drops mining stations to claim resources, and those have static one-time influence gains. This kind of influence war tactic the AI currently has no defense against, and it is something a strong AI could use successfully against the player. Especially early in the game when influence totals are low and so the base culture station is at its most powerful and can claim huge tracts of land.

12) because of 11, the ai needs to stop colonizing deep inside hostile influence unless it wants to give world's to that other player. If colonizing the planet will not move the sphere of influence lines on the map, the AI should not colonize the world at any difficulty higher than beginner, and maybe not even there.

 

13) when trading the ai doesnt know how to add up credits. credits per turn have waaaaaaaay too big a value when I ask from the ai. I can get far more credits as a lump sum than I can as ongoing payment.one example was a recent game where the ai refused even 5 per turn in exchange for a free trade agreement, but happily gave me 800 lump sum and considered it extremely generous. I forget the duration of a free trade agreement, but it is not 140+ turns. Dunno if this counts as exploitable but it greatly hurts the ai when their income is high but bank is low. Edit: Latest patch appears to have removed trading for credits/turn so I am striking out this tactic.

 

Reply #7 Top

14) Create an exception to the "we don't sell Military techs to anyone but our friends": Let the AI be able to look at a Race it's at war with (or wants to start a war with but wants to damage it first) and sell ships/tech to a nuetral race closest to that Enemy/Soon-To-Be-Enemy.

I go along with 9), but I think there should be a limit to how many times you can get away with that before your "Sorry, had a bad day. Took it out on you. Forgive n' forget?" is not forgiven or forgotten. 14) could be a way of doing skirmishes by Proxy.

 

Reply #8 Top

9 is very interesting....

Isn't the AI coded to consider diplomacy whenever a planet is lost/gained ? or is that another game i am thinking of?

Anyway, you could simply attach that same coding to the star base which provoked the skirmish?

 

12.... AI's sending colony.... 'colon' ships deep up the players ahem,,, is a fine tradition in this game and pretty much every other strategy game that involves the deployment of colonies. I don't know what the attraction is? possibly those Aliens that 'probe' humans are really just robots from the future who have evolved on this desire to shove things up humans??? lol

 

Edit: now i remember which game the AI is programmed to consider diplomacy whenever a colony is lost/gained.... its Alpha Centauri! (SMAC)

Reply #9 Top

Quoting Mystikmind, reply 8


12.... AI's sending colony.... 'colon' ships deep up the players ahem,,, is a fine tradition in this game and pretty much every other strategy game that involves the deployment of colonies. I don't know what the attraction is? possibly those Aliens that 'probe' humans are really just robots from the future who have evolved on this desire to shove things up humans??? lol
End of Mystikmind's quote

The specific thing I'm referring to with #12 is when the ai sends a colony ship to a planet deep into hostile ZOC and the only result is three turns later the new colony culture flips. If the AI intended the colony to be a gift to the other faction this behavior is fine. In every other circumstance the AI should be smart enough not to do this. I don't know the math, but I'm sure the devs can figure it out. If the colony can generate enough influence fast enough that it will not have even a 1% population in rebellion after two turns, then safe to colonize. But if the population will start to rebel in two turns, do not colonize.

 

Right now, I often leave low priority world's uncolonized and enter exploration pacts to show them to an ai so as to get free population and colony ships from that ai when it takes these world's deep in my influence. The ai is really vulnerable to this behavior. The current ai behavior also leads to early game steamrolling where two races start close together, one makes a single bad colony choice, loses that world and suddenly the enemy swallows that bad colony plus one or two more. Early one this ends up fatal. So instead of two balanced races, one just got devoured.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting GavinRuneblade, reply 9


Quoting Mystikmind,


12.... AI's sending colony.... 'colon' ships deep up the players ahem,,, is a fine tradition in this game and pretty much every other strategy game that involves the deployment of colonies. I don't know what the attraction is? possibly those Aliens that 'probe' humans are really just robots from the future who have evolved on this desire to shove things up humans??? lol



The specific thing I'm referring to with #12 is when the ai sends a colony ship to a planet deep into hostile ZOC and the only result is three turns later the new colony culture flips. If the AI intended the colony to be a gift to the other faction this behavior is fine. In every other circumstance the AI should be smart enough not to do this. I don't know the math, but I'm sure the devs can figure it out. If the colony can generate enough influence fast enough that it will not have even a 1% population in rebellion after two turns, then safe to colonize. But if the population will start to rebel in two turns, do not colonize.

 

Right now, I often leave low priority world's uncolonized and enter exploration pacts to show them to an ai so as to get free population and colony ships from that ai when it takes these world's deep in my influence. The ai is really vulnerable to this behavior. The current ai behavior also leads to early game steamrolling where two races start close together, one makes a single bad colony choice, loses that world and suddenly the enemy swallows that bad colony plus one or two more. Early one this ends up fatal. So instead of two balanced races, one just got devoured.

End of GavinRuneblade's quote

 

Hmmm sounds like good Kama to me as punishment for colon -  y  probing.