Starbase offense, defense and hit points too low

from GalCiv3 Forums

Starbase defense and hit points are too low in GC3.

Early game, starbases are competitive, with 200 base hit points and 4/8/12 defenses and 4-16 offense.  But once large hulls get unlocked, starbases are just sitting ducks, even if you invest in offense/defense.

- Defensive modules need to be ramped up by about a factor of 2x, giving you the ability to have a starbase with 60-100 defense (for each damage type) in late-game for non-military.

- Offenses probably need a boost, topping out at around 50-60 of each damage type at the upper end for a non-military starbase.

- There is currently no upgrade path to increase the hit points on a starbase, the first constructor should add 50 pts, then 100 pts, then 200 pts, then 400 pts for a total of 950 hit points in late-game on an economic / cultural starbase.

- Military starbases, should be able to hit 1800-2800 hit points, with 100-150 offense and 150-250 defense.  They should also have a higher logistics cap.  Currently, they're not very useful (even with the area of effect bonus) compared to economic / mining bases.

At the start of the last age, I regularly have fleets flying around with 1500-2500 hit points and 250 offense (across all three types) and 250 defense (across all three types) that can move 12-15 turns (base speed) per turn.

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Reply #1 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

I posted about starbases having too little HP several months ago. Below are some ideas I posted.

1. More HP to starbases, each module added to a starbase adds 5-25 HP, late tech modules add 25 more HP, early ones 5 HP. Extra modules for stabases to regen faster HP. New modules for military starbases that increase HP by 25 and 50%, requires resources such as Durantium.

2. Military starbases - Starting range on them is 11 instead of 5. With the 4 range extension, they'll be 15. Extra modules that add more defenses with the highest being for military bases only.

3. Easier to defend? - In order to launch ground invasion troops players must destroy any military starbases in range of the planet player is trying to invade. With the increase range on military starbases this will make them more useful. Say you have two military starbases in range of 5 planets, this makes it easier to defend.

Reply #2 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

I do not necessarily care for more offense on non-military star bases, but more defenses would be nice, in case someone was crazy enough to attack my star bases. This is the reason I do not bother equipping my bases with defenses or weapons. These are simply a waste of constructor points because a fully loaded star base is still just cannon fodder for medium or larger ships (1v1). I usually just protect them with ships.

 

Military star bases are USELESS!!! There, I said what everyone is thinking. They barely have a use for playing defensively because you know that your enemies are going to target your planets, but even then, with their poor range, what is to stop someone from just destroying them beforehand? Rather than splitting your fleet to protect your base and planet, it would be better to just pile everything onto your planet. Offensively, it is not useful at all because it cannot keep up with ships, being immobile and all with a bad range, and the better alternative would simply be to put fleet support modules on a ship even if you wanted to play defensively.

 

Fortunately, I do recall that there is going to be an update to star bases some time next year.

Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #3 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

1) Starbases need to be able to shoot at interlopers.  Its not "defensive" if I can walk right past it.

2) I envision starbases designed custom, as ships are, with the same associate cost/mass restrictions.  Techs should be available to improve starbases in much the same fashion as ships.

 

 

Reply #4 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

Starbases, shipyards, and planets are targets.  Warships are weapons.  That seems to be the GalCiv reality.  Starbases and shipyards were given minimal military to limit pirate predation and early "one small ship kills all your shipyards" events.  Otherwise, the intention is to have you defend your assets with warships.  I find a credible hunter-seeker fleet and a nearby sensor barge is a fairly decent defense in this reality. 

It is very offense oriented. Some people may consider that a flaw.  I consider it a flavor.  It is true that I usually turtle a lot in 4X games.  GalCiv II and III are built to challenge my comfort zones and I appreciate that.

Reply #5 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

Quoting Nilfiry, reply 2

This is the reason I do not bother equipping my bases with defenses or weapons. These are simply a waste of constructor points because a fully loaded star base is still just cannon fodder for medium or larger ships (1v1). I usually just protect them with ships.
End of Nilfiry's quote

That's the main complaint in a nutshell.  Even if you spend a dozen or more constructor points on a starbase, putting in more defenses and offense, it's no match for weak fleets of medium hulled ships in the mid-game.  I mean it would be understandable if that was a completely unprepared starbase with base level defenses, but to send 12-18 constructor ships to a starbase and not make it harder to kill?  Very pointless waste of effort and time.

One limitation on offensive power of non-military starbases could simply to give the (4) starbase types (base, economic, mining, military) different factors in the XML.

Base (not yet specialized): normal

Economic: -25% offense

Mining: -25% offense

Military: +50% offense +50% defense +50% logistics

Removing a fully-built economic/mining starbase should be not be trivial - and removing a fully-built military starbase should be difficult, requiring two fleets of max-logistics if there is a defending fleet (one throw-away fleet to wipe out the defending fleet and soften up the defenders, the other to finish the job).

...

The problem with making the player use fleets to defend starbases are multiple:

  • The computer is far better at the micromanagement required.
  • The player cannot easily see an overview on the map of which starbases have what defensive fleets in place, instead they have to click on each starbase, then mentally add up the number and types of ships present and calculate multiple numbers in their head.  The little green dot over the planet / starbase icon does not give enough detail.
  • Hostile ships can easily bypass defending fleets, striking deep within your territory due to how cheap life support modules are and how easily they can be abused by stacking five or ten of them on a hull.
  • There is no way to highlight hostile ships on the main map (and no way to dim out other map features that are not interesting).
  • The current game design requires economic starbase spam, meaning 3x to 5x as many starbases as you have planets.  Putting defending fleets on all those sites is very difficult / expensive.

Some of those problems can be fixed with UI improvements (better control over which icons are bright/normal/dimmed on the main map).  Others are issues with game balance (ship +range and +speed module stacking, inability to automatically intercept a fleet within range).

What would be nice is if we could press a "show military power" key and have little pop-up windows appear over every single planet / starbase / fleet that shows offense (B/M/K) defense (B/M/K), logistics strength, fleet speed, and range in place of the normal icon.

Reply #6 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

Why are you defending starbases?  With a sensor barge and a fast killer fleet I can defend a region full of starbases, shipyards, and planets, basically one radius worth of warship travel, and I research all the drive techs I can.  If the AI starts fielding ships faster than mine or sensor barges that see farther, I may be in trouble, but so far that has not happened.  But I can't afford or manage individual defenses, so I make things work as I can. 

In my last game, because I gotten jumped long before I could set up any real defenses, the AI got inside my borders with a couple of hunter killer fleets of its own and played havoc with my starbases and shipyards.  It was my fault for not building enough military, but I was most annoyed.  Several large ships were diverted from my primary front line (it was a very busy time with everybody hating me) and they dealt with the intruders after much damage.  After dispatching their medium fleets with my freshly manufactured top of the line medium fleet, I followed the general vector back to their homeland and caught a couple other fleets trying to do the same evil thing.  Conniving little monsters, aren't they?

But once I got that mobile picket line set up, that nasty trick didn't repeat itself successfully.

Anyway, partly because of the reasons you cite, in this game the best defense seems to be a really good offense.  We'll see if that changes.