Various Issues with Claiming Land

from Elemental Forums

I'd like to talk a bit about how the process and implementation of claiming land isn't working terribly well for me in LH right now.  I'll sum up my take on several facets and do a little backseat designing, if for no other reason than to get folks talking about things.

 

You Didn't Earn That!

The first step in getting land is killing the creatures that roam it.  A big problem with this, however, is that clearing the land isn't enough.  You need a sizable staff of pioneers to actually set up shop on the now-vacant land.  Thus, it's not uncommon for me to do the heavy lifting and clear out large chunks of land only to have enemy pioneers set up shop immediately, killing the sense of reward I should feel from conquering monsters.  Nowhere is this more apparent than in the Wildlands - unless you have an army of pioneers spread out ready to claim the land that opens up from clearing a Wildlands, the return you get on your sizable investment feels incredibly underwhelming.   

Consider: Directly link conquering monsters and claiming resources.  Perhaps assign all resources to monster-defended "neutral" outposts so that if you kill the monsters, you claim the outpost/resources.

 

This Land is My Land... Or Yours, or Whatever

Even when you manage to expand your borders and claim some good dirt, it's hard to feel a real sense of ownership.  Sure, you can ask trespassing armies to vamoose, but it's an exhausting and inefficient process - and one that's easy to forget until its too late and foreign pioneers have wandered across your lands and claimed that clay pit you had tucked away between two of your cities.  As a result, expanding my borders doesn't really make me feel like I'm "expanding my empire" - I'm just grabbing a few resources, not adding to any meaningful map control. 

Consider:  Make those Arizona republicans happy and do something about tightening up the borders.  Endless Space was really good about this - expanding your influence in that game was a great low-cost means to control resources that you hadn't explicitly exploited yet (like colonized systems) and lock them down for future use.  In LH I feel that if I don't have an outpost on it RIGHT NOW then it's up for grabs, even if the tiles in question are only accessible through my lands.  Locking down the borders would also go a long ways toward clearing up the late-game headache that comes with keeping track of who's where in your entire kingdom (instead of just keeping an eye on the borders).

 

So what do you think?  Does the current Wild Wild West feel work for you? Are mandatory open borders the greatest thing since sliced bread?  Any other issues of land (or "l and d" as it is known to some)?

 

 

 

16,590 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

some games provide passive penalty for units who visit enemy territory, units with pioner skill can be banned from entering enemy territory completely, other units can be slowed down or constantly damaged.

 

this also will open suggested in other thread "commander" path with skills that improve army movement far away from towns and inside enemy territory.

 

also this will improve player's chances with large neutral armies who camp town, some damage will ease battle. 

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd like to see maybe an outpost upgrade that blocks all non-ally and non-enemy units from entering its radius, but with the way outposts work ATM it would be too hard to set up a perimeter. For now I just carpet my lands with outposts, filling in every tile I can, and blocking passes with snaking cities wherever possible.

Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

In my opinion, this isn't a gameplay issue. This game is about competing for resources and territory! You SHOULD have pioneers ready to go once you clear a wildland. 

And if the enemy takes resources you thought were "yours," declare war and take their resources!

I think the problem is that you are just getting out-expanded by the AI - consider your strategy/difficulty level. AI's with the "Expansionist" AI trait will spam pioneers.

If you're playing against custom Sovereigns you created, you can tweak these traits in their XML file, so that this behavior is less likely.   

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd like an option for the UI bar to display foreign units in my territory, not just enemies.  

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top


Although I do see the OP points I do tend to agree with davrovana's take.  You are competing for territory and need to plan ahead and get pioneers ready and in position before you need to use them.  Even then you can get another empire's pioneer beating you to it.  At that point you grin and bear it or you wage war.   Whenever I am clearing a green zone and I will plan ahead training a number of pioneers and getting them into position to grab the new resources that will become available once the green area is cleared. 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

You responded to the first point only to ignore the second, borders in this game really... aren't. I shouldn't have to constantly hassle the AI to stay out of my territory. Especially annoying when they keep doing it with pioneers to try and get land that you've completely locked down with your borders but haven't finished scooping up yet.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Before making the OP, I thought about the resource angle on Pioneers, but found it inadequate for one very important reason:  it doesn't matter to the AI.  They're playing a different game than I am.  In my game, I fight monsters to open up lands.  They, however, just claim whatever they want because the monsters ignore them.

The whole "having pioneers on hand is part of the mechanic" argument would work if it felt like a organic mechanic.  Right now, though, I think it feels overly "gamey," and frankly something that REALLY wouldn't hold up if my opponents were proactive humans and not reactive AIs. 

Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top

Anywhere you can wrangle a choke point, just clog the pass with spearmen or militia (some low-cost three-stack unit). Unless they wardec you, the AI will not be able to go through that unit line. In my current game on, 'Athys,' I did that in three different spots as I expanded, setting up large guard forces of inexpensive troops to plug entryways into my territory.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

schatten- I did the same thing on Anthys, on the land bridge between continents. An opponent on the other continent was spamming pioneers to come in and take my unclaimed resources, but a mass of cheap troops shut that shit down. 

Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top

I did that... let's see, on the land bridge, once I got there. Also in the 1-wide passage through that space occupied by several stacks of Obsidian Golems, and also down at the two-wide passage between the southern portion of the right side and the area delimited by the Golem area, the land bridge, and the southern area. Incidentally, all 3 times have been to block Pariden (while killing Gilden), who I only half crushed in order to take over the entire right side so I can amass unquantifiable wealth/power and then crush the three remaining opponents in one bloody campaign.

Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting schattenjaeger, reply 8

Anywhere you can wrangle a choke point, just clog the pass with spearmen or militia (some low-cost three-stack unit). Unless they wardec you, the AI will not be able to go through that unit line. In my current game on, 'Athys,' I did that in three different spots as I expanded, setting up large guard forces of inexpensive troops to plug entryways into my territory.
End of schattenjaeger's quote

 

It's a nice trick, but I hope one day game will improve in that matter. E.g. in Civ5 you can't enter enemy borders unless you sign an open border policy. Which sounds a bit more logical to me.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top


One issue I see with closing off borders, is that quests do spawn objectives in other players' territory.  It's just an annoyance for most quests, but blocking off the master quest due to one of the steps spawning in an opponents land would be very frustrating.  You can always buy open boarders or declare war, but its nice to be able to just slip in, do the quest, then leave.

Perhaps only armys with a soverign or hero should be allowed to enter oponents borders without permission?  Or even just a stack with the soverign himself/herself can do so?

Stops the spam, but still lets questers in.