[.952] Horses are ridiculous

Why are there not more threads complaining about how disgustingly overpowered horses are?

A horse has:

+3 Initiative

+20 Weight capacity

+2 Moves

+25 Dodge vs ranged

+100 Prone avoidance 

 

It costs 80 gildar and is in the second tier of the Warfare tech tree.

 

Movement is arguably the best property in game, +2 move essentially gives you +100% exp compared to a normal unit because you can fight twice as often (at least if you have the master scout ability). In reality though it is even more +exp because you will get to monster spawns faster and clear them out before your opponents even get there. Having 4 move also gives you unlimited kiting abilities vs 2-move monster in tactical battles and gives you the opportunity to attack 3 and 4-move monsters first.

 

Initiative +3 that doesnt take up an item slot is huge. Compare it, for example, to the Amulet of Haste (+2 init) which cost 90 gildar and is 3 steps into the magic tech tree. 

 

Weight capacity +20  that doesnt take up an item slot is also really good.

 

Dodge and Prone avoidance are comparatively minor advantages. 

 

I would easily pay 200g for a horse with only +1 move, its that good

33,647 views 31 replies
Reply #1 Top

It is OP, but plodding along with 1 movement most of the game is not fun, so I'm glad they've lowered the requirements since early in the beta.

Reply #2 Top

Agree. Horses are OP. Horses should give +1 move and not be available in early technologies.

Reply #3 Top

horses might be second tier but that tier is not exactly cheap to research... and there are all those other awesome things you want/need to research too...

Reply #4 Top

Perhaps there should be advanced horseback tech.  So the initial horse tech could give you some basic +2 initiative, +2 move, +20 weight reduction.  Everything else comes later at increased research cost.

Also for balance purposes, I feel that mounted units as a whole do not give enough oomph to initiative.  Initiative bonus should be +5 or 10.  +3 just feels like meh, you can get a magic shirt and get that.  :P

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Supreme, reply 5
Perhaps there should be advanced horseback tech.  So the initial horse tech could give you some basic +2 initiative, +2 move, +20 weight reduction.  Everything else comes later at increased research cost.

Also for balance purposes, I feel that mounted units as a whole do not give enough oomph to initiative.  Initiative bonus should be +5 or 10.  +3 just feels like meh, you can get a magic shirt and get that. 
End of Supreme's quote

 

My whole point is basically that +2 move is super OP so the initial tech should definitely NOT have that.

Reply #6 Top

I'm just going to have to leave it at that then, cause I don't agree at all.

Reply #7 Top

Some players need a "Win" button...

Reply #8 Top

Horses are extremely OP.

One thing I don't understand is why they have prone avoidance.  They ought to be MORE prone to prone.

Reply #9 Top

In my humble opinion, horses should probably have a different bonus than Wargs, say horses give 2-3 defense or 15 health or something? But, the +2 movement and the +3 initiative, is pretty crazy. I also think the prone is kind of completely unnecessary. For 80 gold, how about +1 move, +10 carry capacity +1-2 initiative horses? While wargs get +1 move, +10 dodge and +1-2 initiative. Perhaphs receiving an additional +1 move and +5 weight/dogde for an additional 1-2 upgrades which would have the tech looking like this:

 

Wargs                 upgrade 1 (mid game?)       upgrade 2 (late game?)

+1 move -----------> +2 -----------------------> +3

+2 initiative --------> +3 -----------------------> +5

+10 dodge ---------> +15 ----------------------> +25

 

Horses

+1 move -------------> +2 ----------------------> +3

+2 initiative ----------> +3 ----------------------> +5

+10 carry weight -----> +15 ---------------------> +30

 

Each of the numbers at each stage represents its total bonus as that level, they are not additive.

Maybe have these additional techs as part of the current war tree- which would mean, as you get closer to late game, your use of beasts gets better too.

 

Of course upgrades for spiders, skags and such would need to fall in line- but I don't know those off the top of my head.

Reply #10 Top

I like the differentiation of horse vs wargs at the moment, they're designed for very different purposes.  I generally give my ranged units wargs for the huge initiative bonuses, while armored melee units need the weight and move bonus more. 

One thing I don't understand is why they have prone avoidance.  They ought to be MORE prone to prone.
End of quote
I think that's more a code limitation than anything, but it also doesn't make sense for a horse to be knocked over by a gust of wind, a la Titan's Breath.

On a more general note, I don't get why people are calling for mounted nerfs, when the better approach would be to make being unmounted desirable in certain situations.  Heavenfall's mod has a pretty decent blueprint for doing this, and while I don't know if he specifically has bonuses to mounted units vs unmounted, that would be a good start to balancing them out.  Your enemies using horse-mounted armies?  Counter them with pikes, which deal double damage against horses if the wielder is not mounted.  Make some traits only useable by unmounted units. Things like that are a better approach to dealing with mounted units than ZOMG NERF TEH HOERSIES!!!

As far as heroes are concerned, I see no reason why they shouldn't want to be mounted.  It's like any other piece of gear; you're always going to want to give your guy the best you can find/afford.  Mounts are just one of many shiny objects to give your heroes.

Reply #11 Top


I'll agree, horses are currently the obviously choice of mount.

However, I really like the fact that horses get +2 movement and wargs only get +1. The balancing needs to happen in the other stats. Wargs should be combat oriented, with + dodge and +attack; enough to tempt you to take warg over that +2 movement bonus.

Should also be one or two other types of mounts, imo.

Really liked how I came across a guy riding some kind of dire-boar-thingy. Very unique. Very awesome. Hoping for more of that.

 

Reply #12 Top


I would like to see different types of horses.  Perhaps they can come available after you upgrade to a ranch.  Light and Heavy Warhorses.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Emperorjarin, reply 11
...
End of Emperorjarin's quote

I'm not necessarily calling for nerfed horses, rather the price one pays for a quality trained war horse needs to be reflected in the cost of the beast.  I'd say a horse should easily cost 500 - 1000 gildar per. 

I still think the +100 prone avoidance thing is silly, and saying it's a coding limitation is a cop out, imo.  It's not the horse that's more likely to go prone, it's the rider that would be more likely to go prone while riding a horse.

Reply #14 Top

Leave the horses a lone. If you don't like them, then don't use them. It is a single player game. You need to tech up to use them. You need a horse resource if you want mounted troops. You have to buy individual horses for champs. This is one of those things that makes no sense to me.

Reply #15 Top

Quoting GFireflyE, reply 12
 However, I really like the fact that horses get +2 movement and wargs only get +1. The balancing needs to happen in the other stats. Wargs should be combat oriented, with + dodge and +attack; enough to tempt you to take warg over that +2 movement bonus.
 
End of GFireflyE's quote

I agree with what your saying here. The utility vs attack of horses and wargs should be apparent. 

Quoting Emperorjarin, reply 11
 On a more general note, I don't get why people are calling for mounted nerfs, when the better approach would be to make being unmounted desirable in certain situations.  Heavenfall's mod has a pretty decent blueprint for doing this, and while I don't know if he specifically has bonuses to mounted units vs unmounted, that would be a good start to balancing them out.  Your enemies using horse-mounted armies?  Counter them with pikes, which deal double damage against horses if the wielder is not mounted.  Make some traits only useable by unmounted units. 
End of Emperorjarin's quote

I would say that, while the prone avoidance makes sense and I like the direction you are taking with having some situations be better for mounted vs non-mounted units.

However, the reason I believe horses movement should be reduced (or made harder to access, etc farther tech, more costly..) is pretty clearly stated by the author:

"Movement is arguably the best property in game, +2 move essentially gives you +100% exp compared to a normal unit because you can fight twice as often (at least if you have the master scout ability). In reality though it is even more +exp because you will get to monster spawns faster and clear them out before your opponents even get there. Having 4 move also gives you unlimited kiting abilities vs 2-move monster in tactical battles and gives you the opportunity to attack 3 and 4-move monsters first."


When it is possible to get a horse early in the game your hero/sovereign can advance significantly faster and reach/clear areas for settlement considerably faster than if he did not have a horse. 

Say I spawn with a horse resource 2 squares from where I found my civilization. By the time I have upgraded to a town and have a monument, (say season 70) I have the opportunity to build a horse pasture. At which point my hero can immediately purchase a horse, assuming he is moving in a small army, or with high mobility minions he will go from 2 -> 4 movement (assuming it took me 10 turns to get my hero back to my town and get all this done). Starting at turn 80 I will be moving at twice the rate, by turn 120, I will of covered 80 squares compared to 40. Assuming some of those are wasted and I do not have roads, I would still be roughly 30% farther than if I had not invested in that horse 40 turns ago.

It has nothing to do with the prone, nothing to do with the weight capacity, or even the initiative, the +2 movement makes a world of difference (the other stats are awesome though).

 

Compare that idea to a game that has 220 turns invested, assuming the AI has not gotten horses all game.... which they do generally seem to manage that. By this time you have moved a whopping 280 more squares (per champion) than the AI. Assuming you have 3-4 heroes and they come in at different times you still get 280 (100% of the time for the sov), 210 (75% of the time for your first hero), 140 (50% of the time for your third hero), 84 (and 30% of that time for that level 9 hero). You would be roughly 714 squares ahead of the AI. You don't even need to be good at that point, just because you have explored that much more and leveled so much more you will win.

Reply #16 Top

I have no problem with the Horses as they are. My beef is with Worgs. They should be slower than horses not carry as much. But they should give an attack bonus and Init bonus.  

Reply #17 Top

Quoting MidnightsFX, reply 10
In my humble opinion, horses should probably have a different bonus than Wargs, say horses give 2-3 defense or 15 health or something? But, the +2 movement and the +3 initiative, is pretty crazy. I also think the prone is kind of completely unnecessary. For 80 gold, how about +1 move, +10 carry capacity +1-2 initiative horses? While wargs get +1 move, +10 dodge and +1-2 initiative. Perhaphs receiving an additional +1 move and +5 weight/dogde for an additional 1-2 upgrades which would have the tech looking like this:

 

Wargs                 upgrade 1 (mid game?)       upgrade 2 (late game?)

+1 move -----------> +2 -----------------------> +3

+2 initiative --------> +3 -----------------------> +5

+10 dodge ---------> +15 ----------------------> +25

 

Horses

+1 move -------------> +2 ----------------------> +3

+2 initiative ----------> +3 ----------------------> +5

+10 carry weight -----> +15 ---------------------> +30

 

Each of the numbers at each stage represents its total bonus as that level, they are not additive.

Maybe have these additional techs as part of the current war tree- which would mean, as you get closer to late game, your use of beasts gets better too.

 

Of course upgrades for spiders, skags and such would need to fall in line- but I don't know those off the top of my head.
End of MidnightsFX's quote

 

How about this instead

Wargs                 upgrade 1 (mid game?)       upgrade 2 (late game?)

+1 move -----------> +2 -----------------------> +3

+1 initiative --------> +2 -----------------------> +3

+3 Attack ---------> +4 ----------------------> +5  (this can be adjusted for balance)

 

Horses

+2move -------------> +3 ----------------------> +4  (They are horses after all they should have higher movement)

+1 initiative ----------> +2 ----------------------> +3

+10 carry weight -----> +20 ---------------------> +30

 

Also it would be nice if they had Barding in the game for the mounted units.

Reply #18 Top

Why should horses get a large movement speed bonus on the overland map anyway? Horses are not faster than humans over long distances and cavalry units moving at equal speed as infantry was not due to the cavalry slowing down on purpose. Horses need a lot of food and care too. Giving them a movement speed bonus in combat only would work well.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting ggdfgs345, reply 19
Why should horses get a large movement speed bonus on the overland map anyway? Horses are not faster than humans over long distances and cavalry units moving at equal speed as infantry was not due to the cavalry slowing down on purpose. Horses need a lot of food and care too. Giving them a movement speed bonus in combat only would work well.
End of ggdfgs345's quote

I agree.

Reply #20 Top

Quoting MidnightsFX, reply 16
Say I spawn with a horse resource 2 squares from where I found my civilization. By the time I have upgraded to a town and have a monument, (say season 70) I have the opportunity to build a horse pasture. At which point my hero can immediately purchase a horse, assuming he is moving in a small army, or with high mobility minions he will go from 2 -> 4 movement (assuming it took me 10 turns to get my hero back to my town and get all this done). Starting at turn 80 I will be moving at twice the rate, by turn 120, I will of covered 80 squares compared to 40. Assuming some of those are wasted and I do not have roads, I would still be roughly 30% farther than if I had not invested in that horse 40 turns ago.
End of MidnightsFX's quote

To take that further, I don't think you actually need a horse resource for your champions to buy horses, only regular units require you to use up resources. I wouldn't mind seeing that change as well.

 

Reply #21 Top

My opinion is that the riders need more upkeep. The weakness to piercing weapons. Should not receive a bonus on roads. Both income horses too much. I do not see any reason to build foot troops.

Reply #22 Top


 

I would easily pay 200g for a horse with only +1 move, its that good. 

End of quote

 

easy solution. 80g up front. And 2 gold per turn. The horse has gotta eat. That way joe-schmuck crap-champion doesn't need a horse. He can walk.

Reply #23 Top

So a horse eats the basic amount of food that a merchant makes per season? :typo:

 

I just made Mounted Warfare require Animal Hunsbandry and Drills. So it takes longer to get to and you have to use two tech trees. Then I raised the shop cost. Problem solved. They should really make me President.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 24
I just made Mounted Warfare require Animal Hunsbandry and Drills. So it takes longer to get to and you have to use two tech trees. Then I raised the shop cost. Problem solved. They should really make me President.
End of seanw3's quote

 

Yes Arnold, we could use a terminator right now. But besides that, having the horse require two tech trees and upping its cost is a good balance, I am not a fan of the 2 gold per turn, even if that probably is considerably closer to the value gained from getting and using a horse.

Reply #25 Top

My suggestions:

 

Piercing weapons get a first strike vs horses.  Krax Fortify gives a big bonus as well.

Heroes get a Piercing weapon promotion tree that gives bonus vs mounted as part of its bonuses.

No Init bonus

50% chance of spell failure while mounted,unless you take Mounted Mage promotion (Path of the Mage) or promotion trait (Expensive)

50% accuracy penalty to archery unless Horse Archery promotion is chosen (Any tree) or trait