It's pretty much standard warfare that to defeat a dug in opponent, you need 2-3 times the manpower/firepower.

And it can be interrupted...

No...I actually thought it was OP before Rebellion but...well...people told me Vasari were underpowered (by people I mean Qu4r)...

He said that after he got double teamed or what?

About the nanites.......

As long as I remember - Vasari always been the dev's favorite race,they were never UP.Tec were,Advent were,but never Vasari.

Elitist Pro's usually preffered(and still do) playing Vasari to gain more odds for winning.1v1 Vasa always were the toughest to deal with.

I dont expect them to be balanced anymore,its a "I am a fag and I MUST WIN" race.

Deal with it.

I saw "Nerf Titans" and almost cried...I would only be okay with a titan nerf if I could build 2 of them...and even then, just barely.  (No Orkie jokes people...you know who you are...)

-Twi

Further testing confirmed that the effect last for 5 minutes, no matter what!

So even if you jump out in full retreat, a pursuing fleet will do grave damage to you, because you will have no abllities of any kind or any hull or shield regeneration.

Please consider that every hull point regenerated per second is a hull point after armor and after shield mitigation.

That means, that 1000 hull points regenerated in a minute does equal the ammount of 7000 damage done in that time.

7000 multiplied by 5 minutes..... 35000 effective damage.

For a single freaking turret.

Advent Beam Synergy is puny...

TEC Meson Bolt and Burst Rockets is actually not bad... but it has to go trough mitigation and armor first....

I request a Nerf to it. Hard.

This is definitely a ridiculous ability.  5 minutes where there's absolutely zero passive regeneration of anything is absurd.

I think it would be nicer if it did a 15% reduction of everything, but stack up to 5 times, for a max 75% reduction. it would have its effect reduced by 1/3 against capital ships (10*5 = max 50% reduction) and 2/3 against titans (5 * 5 = max 25% reduction).

Aaaand time should be reduced as well, 2 minutes max.

just wanna put in here that Kortul Devastators also own titans. Disruptive strikes drains antimatter and it puts an insane cool down for abilities. Gotta love dem Vasaris!

To the people claiming vasari were always OP, I seem to remember a couple of posts/threads to the contrary in the past.  Most of which were backed up by the bigger MP people at the time.  (Darvin and RagingAmish)

Haven't seen either in a while, and I'm pretty sure Amish outright left, but they had some pretty good points as to how they were the most inferior.  This was around the same time as buggy Illums around Entrenchment though, so it doesn't apply to current games.  Still, stating Vas have always been OP is inaccurate.

-Twi

Twilight, you got to catch up with the times man....you can't compare the balance of entrenchment to the balance of Rebellion v1.04...

As far as most people are concerned, Vasari have been the king race forever....diplomacy v1.2 basically made them king, and while nerfs to vasari have been made since then, they have basically been on top for the last year and half or so (maybe 2 years, I don't remember when v1.2 was released)...remember, Trinity going on steam (and Rebellion being steamworks) has brought in a whole new crowd of people who know nothing of the days before Trinity...even some of the old timers weren't all that active on ICO before Diplomacy....

I wasn't comparing the balance.  People were claiming Vasari have always been OP, and I was correcting them.

-Twi

Eh-Vasari have generally been on top ever since the bugfixes dissembled the unstoppable monster that was vanilla Advent.

Vasari Missile Platform:

HP 3000

Armor 12

Base Damage 20

   Disruptor Nanites:

   Duration 300

   Passive Regeneration Disabled

TEC Gauss Defense Turret:

HP 3000

Armor 12

Base Damage 23

   Burst Rockets:

   Cooldown 15

   Range 4500

   Max Targets 4

   Damage 70

      Meson Bolt Cannon:

      Cooldown 40

      Range 8000

      Duration 60

      Armor -3

      Damage 175

Advent Beam Defense Platform:

HP 3000

Armor 12

Base Damage 20

   Synergy:

   Shields +250(Max +1000)

   Damage +13%(Max +50%)

   Max Targets 4

Do these all really seem that far apart in terms of power?  I don't.  TEC Deals a lot more damage, Advent are harder to kill, and Vasari deny HP/Shields from regenerating for a short time.  I think if someone looks into the numbers more closely, they'll find that all 3 are pretty well balanced in terms of power.  Although I wouldn't object to the ability having a 30 second cooldown if people ar still insistent.

-Twi

@ twi

yes, the vasari turret that debuffs passive regeneration for a duration of 300 is actually OP considering the other techs available.  If you don't know, passive regen is huge and disabling all of it from one freaking turret is ridiculous.  The vasari defense is already insane as it is, they don't even need a turret ability, let alone one that is this good.

No Idea where to find it now, but someone had the numbers figured out for how much HP each point of armer equated to.  (That is, how much HP was saved by each point.)

The TEC Meson Bolt Cannon removes 3 points of armor for 60 seconds, and deals 175 damage per shot on top of it, with a 40 second cooldown.  Dropping armor can be just as devastating as stopping regeneration, even if it is just for Hull.  And the Vasari are the only ones capable of partially bypassing the shields given by Advent Synergy, but usually must get in range to take the extra 50% damage, which is also pretty much the same as no Regeneration due to the extra incoming dmage.  Right now, the only thing the Phase Missile Platform has going for it is  no cooldown, and the fact that the effect lasts even while outside its range.  Although technically, so does Meson Bolt, just a fifth of the Duration.

EDIT:

Found a thread with the armor numbers, and a chart posted by "unwary" :

So Meson Bolt Canon effectively reduses a unit's HP by up to 15%, or 150 HP per 1000, for 60 seconds, and deals a permanent 175 damage until regenerated if the unit survives combat.

Most late game fleets should not be out without some sort of healing unit to back them up.

TEC have Dunov and Hoshiko

Advent have Mothership and...Eh...One of their Cruisers, Subjugator I think?  Also their Light Frigate and Antimater platform for AM.

Vasari have Skirantra and...One of their Cruisers, not sure which.

And all 3 have repair platforms, as well as other abilities I'm sure I'm forgetting.

The Disruptor Nanites ability says it removes PASSIVE regeneration, not healing from other sources.  If it isn't allowing ANYTHING through, this may be a bug that's been overlooked, not an out of line ability.  This is based on the description of what the ability says it does.

-Twi

The damage output of the turrets is irrelevant...early game, they are all close enough to have the same effect (usually to prevent caps from bombing the planet) and no one is going to have the abiliies for them....mid and late game, turrets are generally not useful....occasionally you may want to build them to prevent a lone cap from bombing a planet far from the frontline, but bomber spam and the shear size of fleets basically makes them useless...

The damage of rocket burst, synergy, and meson bolt pales in comparison to all the other damage your titan abilities and bombers can do...sure, 20 or so turrets would do a fair amount of damage (and perform well against capital armor) but bombers makes them pretty much obsolete...you'll be lucky to get even a few shots off before they get killed or the enemy gets out of range...

The thing with disruptive nanites is that you only need one hit to get a very powerful effect....if placed along the edge of the gravity well, they may be completley unavoidable and as such the player's caps and/or titans will inevitably get hit by one of them at least once...sure, the fleet+bombers might quickly destroy the turrets but it doesn't matter because the enemy already got that one shot off....and now you have passive regen disabled for 5 minutes....

You could do the same with the other factions' turrets, but they have no lasting effects (meson bolt is a meager -3 amror and only lasts 60s) and so they'd serve little purpose....

Their turret turns out to be the most useful now that the game is essentially all about caps and titans, and that is combined with moving SBs, phase nodes, and phasic trap...if the Vasari didn't already have so many tricks up their sleeve maybe it wouldn't matter....but Vasari just have too many things going for them for killing/disrupting caps and titans....nano disassemblers, gravity warhead (which affects titans), disruptive strikes, PMs that bypass shield mitigation...

It's not the nature of the debuff, it's the duration that is just an absolute killer....

@ twi

okay so lets say your main fleet targets have been hit by these turrets.

you ONLY have your healer units to heal your primary ships back to health, as they are unable to passively regen anything.

So, this makes it so that the vasari player just has to focus down your healing units, or they can just brute force your primary units much easier as well.  Not having passive regen really does make its far easier to kill your units.

This ability still allows healing(so therefore not bugged), yet that is not the issue at all.

a 30 second debuff is much more reasonable, as it will be refreshed constantly while a ship is under direct fire from the turret.

If your fleet retreats you won't have a 5 min debuff on your main ships, and it will fade away like it should. 

5 min is a very long time in most fleet fights, and one turret can spell doom for your caps/titans recovery time.

Yes, one turret hit from one of these makes it so a titan 1v1 encounter of equal levels is heavily in the favor of the vasari player for 5 min.

one dinky turret having that much of an effect on titan balance is pretty OP, considering titan balance is critical to the game.

Passive regeneration is huge....the regen for hull and shields can easily exceed 10 per second....most importantly, AM regen is disabled which is a major penalty...it makes your caps and titans lose AM super fast and severely limits your ability usage (which is what makes titans and caps useful)...combined with disruptive strikes, Vasari can easily negate all your cap and titan abilities extremely fast...it is an extremely powerful debuff and support cruisers simply cannot make up for the harm it does....

I've noticed you're picking a lot of things apart, Seleuceia, but no suggestions.  How would you suggest the ability be changed?  I suggested adding a 30 second cooldown.

I would also support a lowered duration(As low as 60 seconds)

or making the ability an outright passive aura effecting everything in range, until it gets out of range.  With enough turrets to make a difference, it wouldn't really be a major thing for any of these to be implemented.

-Twi

I like the idea of a passive aura... I like that idea a lot. Because if you run it stops... and if you dont it just deals a bit of extra damage and might buy the other defenses structures a bit more time because you want do destroy the turrets first.

I even gave it its own paragraph...I don't know how I can be more clear about how I want this ability to be changed....

Passive aura is bad idea...I once tried an ability that did passive regen disablement as an AoE for 15s bursts and found it to be ridiculously OP....it should only affects the ships hit by the turrets, which would be mainly caps and titans...

Hey, instead of bickering, I will post my idea again, why you don't you guys Sel and Twi don't pick it apart, even if it is horrible, please explain why, let's be constructive:

Ability changed from disabling HULL, SHIELD and ANTIMATTER passive regen for 5 minutes to:

duration changed to 2 minutes

each hit gives a penalty of 15/10/5% to the passive regens, against frigates/capships/titans; stacks up to 5 times for a max 75/50/25% passive regeneration reduction.

duration changed to 30 seconds works just as well, imo.  2 min is a long time, and it gets refreshed every hit.  people don't usually primary turrets anyways, so its not like it won't be getting good use in a fight

Nanities are only weapon against high lvl tit