Thoughts on the game's balance (Be warned, wall of text incoming)

from Sins Forums

I've been checking into the game frequently hoping the game would be patched. Rebellion had me so disgusted for a while there that I gave up on multiplayer and went to single player. The AI won't exploit the game, but a person will.

I've always enjoyed the chessmatch that is multiplayer sins. I would still argue the best version was the original before entrenchment came out (more on that later).

I've been playing with each faction trying to figure out the ins and outs, what makes them special with rebel vs. loyalist. Here are some points I hope the devs will consider.

General Comments:

- Corvette Balance -

Switching these little guys to anti-light was an awesome move, but I'm very nervous when I see Yarlen saying further changes are coming. Specifially, they'll get a new damage type. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the corvette is essentially a fighter you can buy in frigate form. I.E. it's a more practical anti-light damage dealther than fighters. Fighters counter bombers, corvettes are a better fit for fightings off lrms. Fine by me!

All I can say is please don't take a step backwards.

- Starbase Balance -

Let me make this clear. I hate starbases, and it's not for the reason you think. I'm all for providing the game with adequate defensive structures (gauss turrets won't cut it if you actually want to defend). I think starbases fit that role well.

Here's what I REALLY don't like. Imagine you're in a spot where you can get a serious economy going, and I mean in multiplayer. The player has to consoiusly choose to either go for a big econ or a big fleet. You're going to be stuck with one or the other because with a fleet comes taxation. Starbases NEGATE that balancing factor. 

An econ player can effectively have a stronger military presence than a player who decides to fleet up. What's the guy with a fleet supposed to do? His fleet should be his advantage, but the econ player can spam starbases so he can't be touched.

To fix this, I think the only solution is to make a starbase have a fleet cost, or perhaps a cost similar to capital ship slot techs. The more starbases you want, the more expensive they get because you have to buy more starbase slots. It's ridiculous that an ECON player can churn out such a strong military presence with no penalty. This kills the balance of the game for me.

TEC Rebel:

My experience so far with the TEC rebels has been solid. I have nothing to say here.

TEC Loyalist:

The two starbase per gravity well ability blows my mind. Specifically, a player can have two starbases with the red button ability. The only effective counter I know to fight the red button with is to use capital ships with a mix of bombers. That's fine and dandy, but the red button ability got BUFFED a while ago. You can do 14000 damage per explosion. A capital ship can survive one of these, but not two. I'd even bet a low level titan would be wiped out by this. I don't know what the answer is here, but I'd like to see something fixed. If I see two starbases beside each other, the only way you can get through is to LET the opponent destroy your fleet and pray you can rebuild quick enough before he gets two more in there.

Vasari Loyalist:

The nerfs to the loyalists didn't go far enough in my opinion, but it's a step in the right direction. I've never understood the community's love for "stripped to the core". You're far better off letting the planet earn you resources over time instead of destroying the planet entirely. I only use this ability as a "scorched earth" technique. If the enemy's going to take the planet, strip it so he can't have it. Does anyone else remember when you could scrap neutrals? Bwah ha ha! Same idea.

I'd like to see stripped to the core GONE or at least, the "turn into dead asteroid" part gone. That ruins the game if all the planets are dead asteroids.

Vasari Rebel:

Oy vey. No. I refuse to play against someone who is a vasari rebel. If this player makes it to late game, it's over. The jumping orky is still a mess. How do you fight a maxed out orky than can jump from grav well to grav well? Easy answer, you can't. A vasari player can econ all he wants and buy a fleet in jumping orkies. No cap ship slots, no fleet supply cost. It's just a unit that can potentially BEAT some of the titans. The only penalty currently is one orky can move at a time per single grav well.

I've seen two answers that make sense. You can either

A) Make the phase engines a tech on the orky. You must buy it and it takes up 5-6 of the starbases 8 slots.

B) Make the orky (and all starbases for that batter), take up something like 25-50 slots. I'm dead serious. I know starbases are either slow or stationary, but they can pimp slap capital ships around all day. The cost vs. payoff for a starbases is WAY too high.

Advent Loyalist:

I saw the Advent titan got a buff, which is great. The thing was a little weak for my taste. Other than that, my only concern is it feels like the loyalists didn't really get good techs with rebellion, or at least, not in comparison to what the TEC and Vasari got.

Advent Rebel:

A few things. First, you can buy an ability which gives you 1 of 10 ships back at your homeworld. I'm not sure this is working properly.

Second, wail of the sacrified reminds me way too much of the TEC red button. It's an ability that can wipe out an entire fleet with little to no warning for the opponent. I understand it costs the advent player a planet, but still, how can you react to something like that?

That's it for now. The two factions I really have issues with are the TEC Loyalists and the Varari Rebels. I understand the need for giving races character and diversity, but balance must reign supreme in the end. Take my thoughts for what you will.

Raging Amish

27,039 views 20 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

You forget that also Red Button also had a range buff and that it can cover entire phase lanes. Double SBs deny entry for anything.

I can't really agree to the whole Starbases actually destroying balance since it seems to be a non-factor in MP games. I almost never see them these days except Orkys for obvious reasons.

Red button needs to be rolled back in some way I agree to that though.

Oddly enough general opinion for a long time was that the TEC Loyalists were a bit underpowered when compared to their Rebel counterpart. Maybe it's because the TEC Rebels can rush econ faster than even the loyalists with Truce with Rogues for zerg colonization. Or that the Rebel Titan was just more useful on all levels rather than waiting for the loyalists to level up its group shield.

 

Vasari Loyalist's strip to core isn't going to be removed. It's their trademark tech. Be hard to remove after advertising this and hyping this for so long.

Vasari Rebels - yah that's obvious with Orkys.

 

Advent Loyalists - Yeah they are the weakest in my opinion. Could be fixed if culture actually got reworked in some way

Advent Rebels can actually be a monster with their titan. Chastic burst is one of the most OP abilites in the game second only to the Vasari Rebels Nano Leech. Hide this with guardians and have fighter cover and just laugh as huge fleets are destroyed in minutes.

Wail of the Sacrifice seems very situational unlike RB where you can place anywhere since it requires a planet with an actually large population cap. You arn't guarenteed this all the time. And the fact you actually have to wait for the population to grow. None the less it is pretty powerful and needs a slight nerf. Anything short of a capital is dead much like RB.

 

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Rovert10, reply 1
I can't really agree to the whole Starbases actually destroying balance since it seems to be a non-factor in MP games. I almost never see them these days except Orkys for obvious reasons.

The issue is actually a little more with eco players building SBs on frontline worlds...then you have multiple SBs on a planet (sometimes even 3) and it's just ridiculous...

I agree that Wail is OP, it's like Red button on crack...

I see nothing wrong with giving corvettes their own damage type...worse case scenario you just make those stats mimic that of anti-light...

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Disagree with the whole star base ruins balance concept. Let's face it, victory can only be achieved by attacking. Something Star Bases (with the exception of the VR one) can't really do. Strip the Core is staying. Haven't gamed with it enough to know if its balanced well enough. Wail of Sacrifice, I agree with Rovert10.

After that I agree. Corvettes are perfect now. You need a massive swarm of them to get back to the old OMG ITS THE OP VETTES! syndrome and by then a competent player can build up a force of flak what would ruin their day and yet they can still keep the LRFs in check (the even older OMG ITS THE OP LRFS!). The VR Orkie needs a big nerf and I like the idea that they have to build the phase engines in and that it takes a good amount of slots. That way you can either build a tanky Orky or an anti-structural Orky. But not both.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Keep in mind that one of the goals with the titan abilities and addition and "big effect" abilities like "Stripped" and "Wail" is to allow the chance of "decisive victories"--instead of a lingering, drag on incremental grindfest.

I think a lot of the balance views are valid but they are not all relative.  The dynamic of the game is intentionally changed and balance should be looked at from that viewpoint.

I'm not troubled by corvettes as they stand other than I miss the fun of massed, zippy cheap buggers--but not their effect on MP play.  They really aren't overwhelming now--they are just a new and different sort of attack.  I would love to see them have their own weapon class just from a modding perspective.

On the starbase point...it is traditionally easier to defend in almost any combat venue than to assault.  This has been true from prehistoric to ancient and up to modern warfare.  Rule of thumb for combat--and one that's remained constant--a 3-1 advantage is needed to attempt a successful assault on a reinforced defensive position and 6-1 or higher to push the odds of success up to "most likely to win".

Starbases are the castles of the future world of Sins.  They store vast resources (notice they have their own trade ports) and with Sins technology can fabricate many of their own parts.  Their power supplies are undoubtedly made to be near indefinite and they should support themselves.  Costs of building and upgrading them are where "logistics" for them come in.

I would love to see upgrade slots for mobile starbases.

Starbase red button, yeah--"ow"--but look at it in contrast to a Wail of the Sacrificed or Stripped to the Core.  I think multi-leveling and pricing it properly is the key.  Choice to decide it's role--permanent defensive fixture or a Trojan horse.

I'd also like to see the Advent's Deliverance Engine damage enemy culture centers in the gravity well where it hits.

Advent rebels--man--I lovetheir titan but yeah--what a monster.  Hard to say right now.

I really think more play needs to be done and watch people develop tactics before we decide "everything" that needs to change.  A lot of options tactics aren't being considered due to "they're different" and maybe should be looked at more closely and with more time.

Good points all around above this.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

I don't really have a problem with a strong defensive unit. If the starbase couldn't dominate, then what's the point of the thing?

My concern is more that the unit can be "spammed", i.e. one in every gravwell. One of the main problems people have with sins is the game is quote on quote "slower". Starbases only worsen that problem.

It's ironic, because I actually prefered the olden days without quick start and with fast as the default speed.

The game was more about calculation than flat out rushing. At first I liked the idea of fighting a starbase, but at a certain point, I think the idea of a starbase just went too far.

I would argue a FLEET, not a building, should be the most decisive thing in the game. A player who decides to focus on econ instead of military should have to pay a penalty (i.e. no military influence), but because of starbases they don't have to worry about that. If it's late game and the guy has 15 planets plus, all he has to do is throw a starbase up and watch as his economy crushes the opponent.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

I Never played multiplayer, so don't know how people play.

 

But from my SP adventures, I find that I disagree on almost all of your points.

TEC loyalists: They are meant to be campers, And the red button is a good way to make sure you stop your enemy dead in their tracks.

edit: Not to forget you can jam the starbase to use abilities.

Vasari Loyalists: They are partially meant to leave their capital planet and move on to the titan as home planet. That is why they are able to strip to the core, leaving everything behind them and just run. The dead asteroid part is fine IMO, the asteroid belt is even more fun(Try to STTC a dead asteroid/asteroid) Makes me feel really powerfull to have the ability to destroy complete planets

Vasari Rebels: The AI doesn't use jumping orky, but I do agianst them, and I must say they are quite OP. Especially when you just roam with the jumping orky destroying planets and all and raise the phase stabilizer and warp your fleet in if you run into other forces that you can't beat with the starbase alone.

Nano leech isn't that hard to counter either, just need to bring enough ships to drain his antimatter(Which is hard I know because he will refill before it runs out usually) or keep most of your forces are range while your titan/capitals blab it(TECR work great for this since their titan does alot of damage which is fine) 

Advent loyalists, played them once, didn't really like them, they feel...lacking...IMO, same with the Advent rebels, they should get a buff, altho I don't know what kinda buff, just that I feel like they are the weakest.

edit: Also wail isn't that OP, I used it once on an enemy fleet with a desert planet(Only ¾ pop as their fleet was gonna warp in), and most of it stayed alive, it took their cruisers etc. down to low hp, but not dead.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

I should clarify, I'm talking about multiplayer. I understand that in single player it fits with the vasari lore. I don't have a problem with that, but stripped to the core can destroy a multiplayer match.

Here's a very simple metaphor to explain why the stripped to the core tech is wrong.

Imagine if we were playing chess. Imagine if I move my queen to take your bishop. Not only did I just take your bishop, but now, you're not allowed to move onto any of the blocks that my queen passed over. That kind of "strategy" is too strong a trump card. Tell you what. If each race is given a tech that could turn it back into what it used to be? I'd be happy.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Unfortunatly, such a fix as adding back in destroyed planets is outside the realm of possiblility in what the devs would be willing to edit with the game.

 

The most recent game I played with vasari loyalists, I didnt even manage to start on the road to sttc before the game was basicly desided. And of course reckless use of it in an eco spot could potentially hurt you in the long term.  I have yet to play enough to know if it is now another one of those "If your enemy brings this out, then you lost a while ago and should have quit" techs yet, (and honestly, id perfer it to not quite be that up)

 

And, IIRC, They are still planning to up the strip time, so that it will be possible to take out a planet before it gets stripped... so.

 

 

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Just once, I want to play a 5v5 where my team is all Vasari Rebels and our primary mode of assault is to jump 5 starbases into the same gravwell.    XD

 

Regarding your suggestions, I proposed a few new Advent Loyalist techs here (https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/427587) - people seemed to think the level cap removal would go to far, but appeared to like the other 2 ideas.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

TEC Rebel:My experience so far with the TEC rebels has been solid. I have nothing to say here.

Well looks like we know what faction he plays as don't we.

-Æ

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Raging, reply 10
The two starbase per gravity well ability blows my mind. Specifically, a player can have two starbases with the red button ability. The only effective counter I know to fight the red button with is to use capital ships with a mix of bombers. That's fine and dandy, but the red button ability got BUFFED a while ago. You can do 14000 damage per explosion. A capital ship can survive one of these, but not two. I'd even bet a low level titan would be wiped out by this. I don't know what the answer is here, but I'd like to see something fixed. If I see two starbases beside each other, the only way you can get through is to LET the opponent destroy your fleet and pray you can rebuild quick enough before he gets two more in there.

They actually buffed RB even more, but rolled back some of the changes after outrage on the forum. Still, RB now affects SC  which is one of the most nonsensical changes ever made by IC. Buffs like this make me go on trolling rampage.

Fun fact: they also nerfed repair cloud. It doesn't repair SC now:p

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

maybe, there could be an ability to the TEC or advent to recreate a planet a la Titan AE style, maybe that could even be an ability of the Titan itself. I don't know.

 

-Æ

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

Corvettes: Corvettes are IMO pretty good right now.  As people adapt, we'll see if they need a new damage type or not.  My guess is yes, but they are close enough to balanced right now that I'd be okay with them staying this way unless someone comes up with a good strategy to demolish them.

Starbases: I see what you mean about starbases, but I disagree.  I feel giving them a supply cost would inherently underpower eco spots as few people are ever entirely closed off from the rest of the map.  I will say that this change would make SP much harder which is something a lot of people would complain about.

TL: I'm not a big fan of BRB taking out quite so many things so easily, but eh..  A change I'd be okay with would be if it did 1000/2000 damage per upgrade on the starbase (not including the BRB upgrades themselves).  That way to get a big boom you have to put in big money and wait longer.  Maybe that's just me..

VL: I'd honestly prefer STTC moved further into the late-game and buff the amount of resources given.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure how you could do that.

VR: As for jumping Orkies, I'd hate to see them take up fleet supply, but I'd be fine with an upgrade that takes 2-3 so you can still get 2x weapons, 2x armor, 1-2x abilities.  Not maxed, but still powerful.  While this is the preferred option, in Rebalanced Races, I made them require both levels of Enhanced Tunneling, making it a tech that's very far into the late-game.  I did that with the other super-techs the VR have as well.

AL: Maybe give them a more potent DE or maybe one with a second ability?  Some sort of game-changing tech..  I've suggested elsewhere that it capture/disable/kill the culture centers around the target planet.  Maybe this could be something unique to the AL.

AR: While Wail is powerful, I think all it needs is some sort of warning.  Maybe some notification in line with superweapons firing and pinging the surrounding planets.  Death comes 40-60 seconds later.  That way, you have some chance to react.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

Here's one thing I'm doing in a mod to deal with Stripped to the Core...

All colonizables become an asteroid after being stripped...I'm talking about a real asteroid, not a dead asteroid...in the case that an asteroid is stripped, you get no resources and the pretty effect doesn't occur (the infocard will still say stripped, but essentially this action is identical to simply disbanding an asteroid normally)...I'd also point out that this mod has removed dead asteroids completely...pirate bases also remain pirate bases after being stripped (and no resources, obviously)...

So, even if every planet is stripped, you still have asteroids which do support logistic structures, and stripping those asteroids is basically the same as disbanding them normally...

Additionally, I'm having SttC only yield resources (no credits)...haven't decided what values to give yet but that's a different matter since I'm working with modded income levels to begin with....

 

 

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

Played a strip rush game the other day after the patch.  It is still Op.  The problem isn't that you get too many resources, but that you get them NOW.  They get turned into ships much faster than if you waited for the planet to produce them.

The real problem is that you can take a planet and immediately strip it.  There needs to be a delay after colonization before you can strip.  Say it has to have 1200 health or 20 pop. before you can strip.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

Has anyone played with strip on normal speed?  I mean, this thing is OP on faster, how OP must it be on slower game speeds??

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting bdelong498, reply 16
Played a strip rush game the other day after the patch.  It is still Op.  The problem isn't that you get too many resources, but that you get them NOW.  They get turned into ships much faster than if you waited for the planet to produce them.

The real problem is that you can take a planet and immediately strip it.  There needs to be a delay after colonization before you can strip.  Say it has to have 1200 health or 20 pop. before you can strip.

 

Perhaps add a "prepare for stripping" planet upgrade which costs time and resources, so you need to prep before you can strip.

It could have several levels, each increases the amount of resources you get out of the strip. The first giving 1/3 of what you get now, the second 2/3 and the third level gives you the full payment.

Only one level for asteroids and moons though since their payoff isn't big enough to compensate paying three levels of strip preparation.

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

I like the idea of the prep upgrade but disagree with the numbers.  L1 would be 60% of what it is now, L2 would be 100%, and L3 would be 140%.

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 19
I like the idea of the prep upgrade but disagree with the numbers.  L1 would be 60% of what it is now, L2 would be 100%, and L3 would be 140%.

 

Having never faced a player-led strip rush myself, I'll defer to your judgement on those numbers.

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

Well, I'm also assuming that there would be some fairly significant upgrade time and cost associated with said upgrades.

I've only ever been strip-rushed "twice."  Once by someone who knew what they were doing and steamrolled me and once by someone who had no idea what they were doing, lost their fleet, titan, and ragequit immediately afterwards.