Random crazy idea #1: add PDS to the game

Point defense system: deals no damage against ships, but is helluva effective against missiles.

Random crazy idea #2: add PDS strike craft to the game

Could also have a jammer ability to reduce enemy strike craft accuracy.

Random crazy idea #3: add tank/support craft. Those dinkies would do no damage, but would absorb hits from a friendly target. Optionally unlock defense abilities in the defense tree to heal shields/hull/armor/am/jam enemy strike craft.

But those will never happen at this stage of the BETA...

Now, since the Advent have a hard time against Vasari and hull-shredding in general, they should get a cruiser/frigate with a mini-sacrifice-invulnerability skill, which would let it take damage dealt to another ship, and it would keep absorbing damage even after it is destroyed, for a few (1~5) seconds.

Honestly There is nothing wrong with massed bombers, this is what happens when you let games drag out and you dont have decisive battles. Anti-air frigates massed pretty much hard counter bombers not to mention there are a million other counters.

Just do what the Hanger Bays get, have an upgrade for the Carriers that let them have some flak defense. Would fit there theme just fine as well. Also I thought it would be cool for the TEC to have some kind of anti fighter/bomber mines for defense, or mines that disable antimatter regen on enemy ships. So they have a harder time making strike craft.

Not hard enough to save your capitalships. Flaks only do 75% damage to bombers, decent but not a hard counter.

Like i said this is a symptom of long drawn out games, I realize that it sucks to lose a level 10 capital to a mass of bombers in my opinion add a modifier to do decreased damage based on the damage per second recieved by bombers, this way it isnt instagibbed, but i'm no modder i'm not even sure this would even be possible.

Another option would be to allow aplified Anti-air damage based on volume of bombers, I.E a anti-blob-esque mechanic for bombers, or IMO just rebalance fighters v.s Anti-air frigates so both are useful.

It is possible and I've done almost exactly that.  In the mod I made, it was actually so a ship would take more damage, the more ships were focus firing it, but the change is as simple as changing a few numbers.

I'm also thinking of fixing this problem with splash damage for flak. Don't nerf the bombers anymore, but if you try to compress a lot of strikecraft into a single wave they'll quickly get destroyed by mass flak. Allows them to actually screen caps effectively. Their base damage could be reduced to make it not as hard of fighters.

And move them before your caps ASAP? After all flaks are always low-value target comparing to caps.

But that shall be possible only if they're fast enough. Maybe also change the "Intercept" also affect the flaks? What do you think about the idea?

And, I indeed agree that any player or AI shall be punished for they left their opponent to build 100 carriers. All I want is "some seconds delay of the inevitable doom of the whole fleet".

If you leave flak burst on autocast you'll waste the ability too...TK push can be microed, and if I can micro it I know you can...both abilities require micro and if TK push is too hard for you to use Mecha-Lenin (which I refuse to believe), then so is flak burst...you may not hit all the bombers before they hit the Halcyon but you can hit a good portion of them...

The point anyway is not that TK push is perfect, but that it does something to provide cover while flak burst does nothing other than raw damage...it has the potential to prevent some bombers from hitting their target (never once said it was foolproof) and it buys you time to do things like retreat, reposition, or play a card in Internet Spades....

One of the things that might be useful on flak versus corvettes and strikecraft is to give them a synergy effect so that the more you have together (close together) the faster their weapons cooldown.

Would simulate overlapping fields of fire with multiple escorts.

Massed bombers in end game are exactly what the US carriers did at the end of WWII in the Pacific and what the Japanese did with kamikaze attacks at the same time.

The counter then was fighters and increased anti-aircraft escorts in formations.

I thought the counter was little man and big boy....

it was actually fat man and little boy, but who's counting?

@OP

The TEC do have the capability to deal with large groups of bombers in the late game.  You sacrifice one of your starbases(via the big red button) to kill off the bomber swarm and take the fight to the enemy, pursuing their carriers relentlessly (your fleet must have a decent amount of flak frigates to whittle away reinforcements, and recommended having a surprise LF fleet on a nearby grav well to warp in).  Carriers start to die, and your opponent is up shit creek.  You MUST plan carefully and do everything you can to prepare for this sort of counter.  Yet in the end game, this is a viable strategy.

The TEC rebels risk more with this strategy, yet it is still effective for them as  well.

To play sins well you must know when to sacrifice your pawns to win the war.

Use sparingly!

That only works if the enemy is so merciful to allow me to build a SB on their grav well, and sit and wait and watch movies and play pokers and drink vodka with patience until I upgrade it with red button.

I think Armistice may be one solution, to allow the TEC to reform their fleet. But I don't think it's reliable, since tactics rely on any Lv6 skill is risky.

I should note that people here seem to be forgetting the Kortul Devastator's Jam Weapons, which completely stops all strike craft in range from firing, for ten seconds; it even applies to strike craft entering the thing's range after the ability is activated.

I think Flak Burst needs to be modified so that it's better at stopping the first wave of attack. When you have reached critical mass of bombers, a single alpha strike can take out any unit; each faction needs an ability to somehow neutralize bombers that have reached critical mass.

If you add splash to flak, it might weaken their numbers, but this will affect fighters more than bombers, AND it won't significantly reduce alpha strike damage.

I think capital ships of every stripe need flak turrets, with the specific number of turrets dependent on the number of starting squadrons a ship gets; I feel that each turret should do double the DPS of a standard flak frigate turret at level one (I suggested as much months ago):

• Eight flak turrets on battleships (0 starting squadrons)
• Six flak turrets on battlecruisers (1 starting squadron)
• Four flak turrets on carriers (3 starting squadrons)

There are only two questions on my mind:

1. Should flak turrets be available on capital ships right away, or with a low-tier upgrade?
2. How many turrets should dreadnoughts get? They don't get any starting squadrons, but they're designed to run with escorts because of their firepower and planet-bombing capabilities; consequently, I'm inclined to give them only four turrets.

Also, it occurs to me to wonder: what if, in addition to doing damage to strike craft, flak burst also cut their DPS (either their damage or their accuracy) by 25/33/50/66%, for W/X/Y/Z seconds? Lore explanation: Flak shells disperse microfilaments that jam sensors. There is precedent for that -- modern defensive smoke launchers contain metal filaments for just this purpose.

Also: BUFF FIGHTERS.

Acceleration. Deceleration. Turn rate. Reduce flak accuracy versus fighters by a LOT.

Fighters should be able to sweep bombers from the sky in a couple of passes. As it is, they overshoot on their first pass without doing any significant damage; by the time they come back 'round, it's too late.

Their cooldown is higher than that (13.5 seconds), so really it's irrelevant.  That's why I suggested a cut to accuracy earlier.  Also, your numbers are far too high.  Try more like 3%/6%/9%/12% but allow stacking.  It may sound small, but it will impact the damage taken pretty significantly.

Vasari critical mass bombers in particular are the problem.  Though fewer, they carry phase missiles and have enough health to survive two level 4 shots from Flak Burst.  Anything else will get killed by double FB.  This is why I suggest an accuracy debuff.  It weakens the initial strike without making them completely ineffectual.

I like your suggestion. I also appreciate your sense of moderation. My approach to problems is generally, "Take extreme measures first, then nerf extreme measures as necessary to bring things back into balance."

I'm afraid the change from the current design is too big, and the chance that devs would accept it is rather small.

And, I think it's better to discuss capital ships' skills at Lv2. I don't know the situation in MP, but at least I found that even Lv10 capital ship is rather fragile before focused fire. I once got my Lv10 Vulkoras and Lv8 Skirantra killed by a Lv10 Eradica, even though I have 5 Skirantra and 1 Rankulas and 10 Serevun Overseers.

Capital ships have always been a bit fragile (aside from a fully leveled battleship) and when you put them up against ANY level 10 titan they will disappear.

So I just want to consider Lv4 captital ships. It's a more realistic scenario.

So, can a Lv4 Kol lived long enough to use the Flak Burst second time? That's what I concerns.

Frostflare's Anti-Bomber Suggestion Sheet:

Flak Burst: In addition to doing damage, now reduces the accuracy of fighters and bombers caught in its radius of effect by 25/33/50/66% for W/X/Y/Z seconds; range increased to 3500 -> 4000 -> 4500 -> 5000, up from 3000 -> 3380 -> 3760-> 4140.

Telekinetic Push: Range increased from 4200 to 5500 (same as Jam Weapons); note that TK Push also reduces strike craft speed and acceleration, so they can't come back at you instantly, and its range does not scale.

Jam Weapons: No change.

So now each faction has a weapons system that can help prevent alpha strike damage from bombers, giving your flak and escort fighters time to clean them up.

However, that might not be enough, so:

Add flak turrets to each capital ship; at level 1, the damage dealt by each turret will be equal to or greater than one of the turrets on their faction's flak frigates; damage will scale with the capital ship's level.

• Battleships (Kol, Kortul, Radiance): 8x turrets
• Battlecruisers (1 starting squadron): 6x turrets
• Carriers (3 starting squadrons) and dreadnoughts (meant to run with escorts): 4x turrets

At minimum, carriers and dreadnoughts will be the DPS equivalent of 1 flak frigate; battlecruisers will be the DPS equivalent of 1.5 flak frigates, and battleships will be the equivalent of 2 flak frigates.

And now: Buff fighters

1. Increase acceleration and deceleration, so they can slow down and come back for another pass quicker, making them more effective as a fighter screen
2. Increase turn rate, so they can take advantage of the acceleration and deceleration

Flak Burst: way too high percentages, but we've already gone over this.  Idk about the range increase..  IMO not really necessary.

TKP: I'd be fine with a bit of a range boost.

Flak Turrets on Caps: way too many.  As I've discovered in modding, the very act of converting the autocannons of the Kol from capitalship damage to antilight damage and allowing them to target SC already slays them quite quickly.  If you had that many flak turrets on everything, capitals would pummel all SC that came in range.  If this is even a path to be taken, I'd suggest instead 2 on battleships, 1 on battlecruisers, and 0 on carriers.  Reason being is that what you're suggesting would make flak frigates obsolete because capitals would fill their role better plus having all sorts of support abilities.

Fighter Buffs: idk about these..  I feel like it should be one or the other with the movement buffs and flak on capitals.  Fighters have reigned supreme before, and we don't want that.  Do not buff the chance to dodge that fighters have though.  That's an incredible buff beyond what you think it is.  Right now, all SC dodge 15% of the time (unless in the radius of the Skirantra's MPA).  

You're suggesting something that would make fighters about five times more powerful than they are now (less chance of hits means more chances to regen damage to survive another hit).  Vasari fighters would become unkillable and anything smaller than a cruiser will get annihilated.  Imagine for a second a swarm of Vasari fighters escorted by a Skirantra with Repair Cloud and Micro Phasing Aura.  They would NEVER die.  With this buff, you would make bombers, scouts, corvettes, and possibly even LF go extinct.  No amount of flak would be able to bring them down.

The Skirantra already gives huge buffs to nearby SC by healing them with RC and allowing them to dodge and gain more DPS with MPA.  You don't want them more invincible than they already are.

Movement buff to fighters is something I'd be fine with.

Honestly though, perhaps the simplest solution to all of this is just to nerf the range of bombers.  Change the range from 2700 to 1700.  Suddenly, you have a lot more play as far as what gets killed.  Now that I think about it, 1700 might be far too little.  Maybe 2300 would be better.  This buff allows flak to hit sooner in comparison, allows capital anti-SC abilities to have more potency, and allows fighters to outrange bombers, allowing defensive fighters to fire on bombers before they come in-range more easily.

Let me put it to you this way: in the real world, your suggestion with a stacking debuff is probably better. I proposed it the way I did above because, in all honesty, how often does a Kol get more than one shot off versus a large wave of bombers? The first shot has to be enough to degrade their performance by a sufficient margin that the Kol is not one-shotted, and to do that, you have to have a powerful debuff.

Time will tell whether or not I'm right.

I'm not sure I agree.

If you look at a Garda Flak Frigate, its listed DPS is 15, but that's for when all guns are firing. The Garda has four guns, so each gun does a little less than 4 DPS.

Are you telling me that 4 8-DPS guns on a carrier seriously outmodes flak frigates and locks down local airspace? In terms of antis-trike craft DPS/cost, health/cost, and anti-strikecraft DPS/supply, flak frigates come out ahead of capital ships in spades. Likewise, capital ship turrets would, like their flak frigate counterparts, only be able to target one strike craft at a time. You need multiple turrets on a ship just to attack multiple strike craft from multiple angles.

If it's that big a deal, though, I suggest implementing turrets that are the same DPS as flak frigates, with the number of turrets I've given (for coverage and for being able to hit multiple strike craft at once).

You've convinced me.

I'm not sure a range nerf is all that's necessary, though. Remember: even if you nerf their range so they take a half second longer to reach their target, there's STILL that wave of bombers you have to deal with. Nerfing their range MIGHT make the range buffs on the above abilities unnecessary, however.

I don't agree the idea to buff fighters. It will trigger a series of re-balance. And the same as buffing the flaks.

Speaking to the idea of adding AA weapon to the capital ships, I'm afraid it's not possible in Sins 1. And it also results in a series of re-balance.

Similar to Volt_Cruelerz, I also think the debuff effect and range are too high. But I can even accept to decrease the damage of Flak Burst. What the skill of Kol needs, is not a all-mighty AA skill that can totally wipe multiple SC squadrons out, but just cover the fleet for a while and let the flaks and fighters do the killing shot.

Problem: Bombers are da BOSS.

Solution: Get two level 10 Kols and a Dunov with Flux Field, then go crazy with Flak Burst!

Seriously though, I just pounded a Vasari strike force into oblivion with five cap ships, including my Titan, and some Hoshikos. Even with my frigates, I must've been outnumbered 2:1 when you include their hordes of strike craft. It was the most epic battle I've ever had in Sins, and I emerged victorious even with the Dark Fleet in front of me and 30 fighter squads behind me. Not to mention I completely annihilated their Titan. The enemy has since resorted to trying to raid me by sending tiny groups of frigates and cruisers through a choke point to one of my asteroids. Yay for choke point camping with my entire fleet!