Implementing TITANS as a MID GAME SHIP

At this point I would like to see all titan prototype techs moved up one slot in the tech tree, which would grant people enough time to prepare starbase defenses and to compose more diverse fleets backed with cruisers in order to still have a chance at winning once they enter the frey.

To answer your question:

Via Advent pressure on the opposing force with their corvettes and tier zero spam. A player under pressure will have a harder time getting a titan.  Also, since this will be hard to balance perfectly, keep the in the reserve a plan B for balance, to reduce advent titan costs. 

Check out my most recent corvette balance thread outlining unique uses for corvettes for the 3 factions here:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/421581

The gist of the post, advent get corvettes at tech level 1, the other races at tech level 3-4.

This could be tweaked, but this would give the advent opening game the Rush capability they need...the point is their opponents should work hard to protect themselves.  The advent should then be able to

A: win the rush if they can.

B: eco up with the free time.

Its a fine line, I honestly think that if the rush is overpowered then the developers should focus more on the early game rush defense capabilities of the vasari and TEC.

This fits with the advent's sin, wrath.

This also makes the advent playstyle a bit more unique. 

Perhaps, different factions of the TEC/vasari could have corvettes at different tech levels?  This would add a great degree of variation to the early playstyle as well, making each faction seem different.

Advent early game eco isn't going to be too bad if its got enough time to get some culture and some metal/crystal upgrades.  This will keep them competitive without having to rely on just one ship.  I've always been a big supporter of just moving the advent crystal research tree down one level so that advent don't need tech level 3 for crystal research..its debilitating to them and always has been.

Perfect balance in this area will be:

Long term rush fights turn against the advent, so there isn't much incentive for their rush to occur for too long.

Even with a small early feed the advent rush capability will have a hard time overcoming the Structural defenses of a competent player(reducing corvette damage to buildings..helps them from debilitating an opponent too much by killing crystal and metal at their HW...).

Players will have to use defensive structures to assist in a successful defense.  This will tie credits down to defensive structures so immediate advent counter attack is unfeasible, allowing the advent to build up a different type(s) of ship (even when resold, the vasari would be able to recoup more of this cash to go on offense thus making research on their racial tech more alluring to them).

Rushes are capable of ensuring that opposing capitals and such are somewhat locked down to defensive posture so they don't get sniped.

TEC/vasari, if/when they beat the rush back would be at a stalemate position where they can either get a stronger economy or advance on the advent (who now have a stronger economy).  The TEC, if they already had one lab and a few upgrades wouldn't have to play too much catchup with their extremely cheap economy research. 

Advent vs advent fights would be a viscous micro battle so that they retain an element of unique gameplay(which would get old if you are ALWAYS fighting intricate corvette micro battles with all the other non advent factions/races)

A buff to in game constructors enabling them to Respawn early and or avoid/absorb more damage before they are taken out.  See my post about this:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/421601

This is no single path to victory, there are many other variables, but overall this playstyle would be quite exciting for both sides as both players are trying their hardest to come out on top.  I would pretty much not play another game for another 2-3 years if the game was on "average" something akin to this.

I believe this game, if inherently set up to favor this sort of encounter, would greatly benefit.

*sigh*

We just need to make the Titans act as HEAVY CAPITOL SHIPS instead of 'I WIN THE GAME SHIPS IF I BLOW YOUR TITAN UP FIRST!' ... Make the Titans half as powerful both in health, damage, abilities (at least for starters) and then keep their current cost the same and remove the cap to build just one and boost them up the research tree a bit (maybe Tier 5 as a starting point and balance it dependent on race.

This would not only allow for the whole XP / Level retaining issue to go away but they would actually be counterable wtihout the need for another titan.

Should be simple. I don't understand this 'I have 1 unit that means I win the game' desire to rush to one unit ... so much for the rest of the game play.

I agree with a argument that titan research is currently too low down the tree.

It always seemed odd that the last phase of titan tech is at a lower tier than that for heavy cruisers, the very units that often make up the backbone of mid/late game fleets.

Titans were perceived by many (myself included) to be a faction's ultimate fleet breaking weapon, and as such, were expected to require high tier research.

Not unlike the tech requirements for super-weapons in the original version of SoaSE.

It's good to see such rational discussion of proposed changes, eg the economic side-effects that may affect the Advent.

I'm not sure what is the best path to improve the late-game economy of the Advent, maybe "Allure of the Unity" could be improved, or add a new tech that reduces the fall in allegiance vs distance from capital.

Eg: level 1: allegiance drop 10% -> 5% per phase jump, level 2 5% -> 3%.

That could greatly improve the economy of a large Advent empire, as less cash & resources would be lost to corruption on distant worlds.

I think the choice to introduce titans sooner rather than later was a right thing to do. Make it to difficult to obtain, and you will rarely/never see it in a game. The only thing needed to balanced is their ability to kill fleets, once they level up, but once that is done, i think it would be ok. 

im going to throw my vote in for boshimi336's idea to have Titans as Heavy Capital Ships so they are just another choice of ship type instead of super central game points or as boshimi336 put it 'I WIN THE GAME SHIPS IF I BLOW YOUR TITAN UP FIRST!'

I want to second this. As it stands now, the game appears to primarily revolve around fielding your single Titan, which takes away immensely from the strategic depth and gameplay of Sins. While Titans should be powerful and be able to take on small-medium fleets (depending on it's level and abilities) on it's own, being able to take on large, fleshed out, and varied fleets is ludicrous. I believe that boshimi's idea may help alleviate this issue, as it would make Titans less of a game ender as they currently are, but at the same time, still make them vital and invaluable to any player's arsenal.

That they carry over their XP and levels is more worrisome for me right now. I hope this is just a testing phase for the beta, and will be removed once the game is released.

I don't understand why the mods get this correctly, that is über ships LAST, but the development team gives us Titans before Kodaiks........

first make titans into "heavy " capitols is stupid and defeats the point of the titans

second pushing titan tech back wont really help to delay them ppl will still have them rly fast from being feed

third should keep its lvl but not xp and should cost more for each lvl and a longer build time and maybe it shlould lose a lvl or 2 each time it  dies

I've simply resigned myself to accepting the game as is, and comforting myself that I can mod it however I want later...

For better or worse, Rebellion is pretty much entirely focused on titans and capital ships now, which all other ship types fairly marginalized...I don't like this, but I also don't think it is going to change...

Sins is an entirely different game now, and SD is making an appeal to a different audience...

I agree with the OP and would prefer to see the following:

1. Dramatically increase the cost to build a Titan vessel. More credits, more ore, more crystal. That alone - when sufficiently increased - would delay the entry of these ships into a game.

2. Slow the Titans down. They are TITANS. Make them move like they are. Any vessels keeping pace with such a starship in a fleet would move very slowly. (Alternate: make them Jump more slowly - actual transit times could be cut to one third.)

3. Some time ago I evinced a desire to have a game-wide declaration when special weapons arre built, and when they are fired/utilized (i.e. Nova Cannon). The same should apply to both the initiation of construction and the completion of construction of a Titan vessel. This is monumental, and should not be a game event missed in the hectic accounting of an empire scale game.

4. Make the Titan construction itself take 4 to 5 times as long as it currently does. Players should have the chance to mount a raid and destroy the work before it completes.

@ seleucia

Don't give up the fight! 

If the developers have an "us vs them" mentality then yes we aren't going to get anywhere, and this beta will be a complete farce.

It will be plainly clear if the devolopers do not actually increase titan tech requirements, something the community at large seems to agree with.  This would be a marketing failure at a profound level. 

@ warloklord

Adding tech requirements is the simplest way to achieve titan balance and to justify titan BUFFS.

I agree with your suggestions in that titan build times and credit cost should be increased.

I'd rather have awesomely powerful strong ships designed for anti fleet in the endgame...Just can't have this too early or you won't be seeing many fleets (aside from rushes) to begin with.

increasing the cost of titans and pushing their research back will only hurt SP and not MP since ppl on MP will get feed alot and still get Titans out rly fast

@ starfallarmada

Yet the possibility is there, I will just look at the data and the actions that we can see from the developers in how they modify the game.

I never EVER stake anything on reputation because too many people i've met never live up to a quarter of what their supposed "reputation" is.  Also, i've been interacting with this company for a while, I also think they are quite good at what they do.  This doesn't mean companies don't make mistakes...I don't want them to make mistakes either, so I will help point out the reefs that are fore of the ship and recommend rudder hard to starboard.

Titans need to be mid-game or later.  When we in the 7 Deadly Sins mod made "Titan" capitals that were available early, everyone just fast-teched to them and obliterated everyone's pitiful frigate fleets and easily won the game if their opponent didn't have a "Titan".  Our meta-game was extremely Titan-centric, just like Rebellion's.  We ended up moving them much later in the tech tree and giving them very expensive research prerequisites so it is now extremely expensive to get one out.  The TCA doesn't get their "Titans" until around 5 or 6 labs IIRC and the Empire needs 6 or 7 before they get their Executor, and even then the "Titans" make Rebellion Titans look inexpensive.  Our balance is much improved from making our "Titans" late-game fleet and planet smashers that bust open stalemates instead of them being early-game fleet smashers that end up forcing everyone to build a Titan or lose.

well now corvettes are the new anti titan... who needs frigates anymore?

the beta is currently a corvette spamfest that requires little to no skill.

Corvettes need to be toned down, and titans need to have their tech increased.

I agree corvettes need to be nerved. Having titans' tech increased won't have a large effect. I'd prefer if the titans would have no flakk attack. Making them weak to strike craft, forcing the player to accompany with flakk and carriers with fighters. The titan as it is now is too much of a one man army.

The Corvettes just need to be nerfed in order to make the game more balanced. They should either receive more damage from all sources, have their movement speeds reduced, or do less weapon damage. Or a little bit of all of these things I just mentioned.

The Titan SHOULD be a one man army, and with expensive fleet support it will be very hard to kill.  What makes it less overpowered is the fact that the one man army will come later on in the fight, not at or near the beginning.

i agree they need to come at later in the game but making them cost more and pushing tech back it not the way to go

maybe a timer where they can only start building after an 1 or something but idk how or if that would work

to be fair i think titans are fine as they are, i dont see most titans coming out until 15-20mins, and thats in a feeder position. A winger can't do it, even if he wins a rush. 

If you however rush a titan you're going to lose the actual fight in a 1 on 1 situation, and its also very true the titan is easily countered without a good suppose fleet, so you then have to take the time to consider fleet make up, and if you've won the rush and pushing forward, i makes more sense to get more spammer ships instead of wasting 16k and whatever on a titan since the money could push you further, faster if youre in a better position.

please note i know my grammar sucks tonight, its 2am and i don't really care. But you can see my points? Ps i am talking from an experienced players perspective, playing with "better" players..

What game settings are you playing on?! On normal speed settings Titans ideally shouldn't come out until mid-late game which in a 6-8 hour game is between 3-4 hours ... ?

mp games done normally last that long their like 2-3 hrs