An idea to challenge the save/reload itch

from Elemental Forums

An indy rpg called Frayed Knights had a great system of rewarding players who did not abuse save / reload by having a meter which gradually filled up the longer you played without reloading the game. Like a mana bar, portions of that could be spent on buffs which improved your characters abilities for a time, or healed them up etc. This encouraged people to take on difficult challenges without that save/reload crutch which pretty much every rpg'er / strategy gamer over-relies on.

A way for Fallen Enchantress to reward risk-taking could be a cumulative xp bonus for every turn spent without reloading, up to a maximum of say 20%. That way, if a player suffers a bad defeat there is still an incentive to eat that immobility and any injuries your champions may suffer and continue without automatically hitting that reload button, but the option to do so is still there for those who would rather swallow their pride and avoid the encounter or try it again.

Other incentives could be an increase in rare drop rate, a slight improvement in quest rewards etc. The idea would be for something subtle, rewarding enough to positively reinforce risk-taking / discourage save/reload abuse, but hopefully not too demanding to code for either the game itself or a mod. 

 

22,646 views 21 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top

It's a good idea which merits additional exploration, although there are two problems with it:

1. The game stability is a big problem (and since E:WoM still is unstable, saying it's still a Beta might not be as much of a consolation as I certainly hope it will turn out to be).

2. There's a significant difference in pace between the games. A late game turn on a Huge map (not present yet, but hopefully will be) might very well take half an hour.

Both of these issues can partially be countered by mechanism that examines save games rather than continuous game progress, but it's easy to cheat by "crashing" the game by killing it from the task manager.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Great idea.

Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top

How about just having an ironman  option when starting a game? Stability would be a killer though (I had an ironman game corrupted for chaos gate in the end of the campaign, and it was pretty bad). It works much better than forcing oneself not to reload!

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting JPRL, reply 1
Both of these issues can partially be countered by mechanism that examines save games rather than continuous game progress, but it's easy to cheat by "crashing" the game by killing it from the task manager.
End of JPRL's quote

 

I've done this when games tried to stop me from reloading. Kill task, relaunch game. No record of mistake made, loaded from save right before action.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

This idea allows you to save as much you like, autosaves etc. The bonus is only removed if you reload, so killing the game in task manager you'll still need to relaunch the game and load up your last save, zeroing any bonus.

It isn't about forcing oneself not to reload, but rewarding oneself for not reloading ;)

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top


I only save as a backup for crashes. No reloading EVER. Still, I dont care how others play at all. Let people do what they want.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I think a simple point is who are we to say how other people play the game.  Reload, never reload, these are personal preferences.  "I think I'm a better player because I never reload".  Who are you comparing yourself to?  Why?  The game isn't about being competitive against other people you will never meet or play against (it's a single player game remember), it's about having fun.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, if you never reload, you generally learn to play the game better, but in singleplayer, it doesn't particularly matter from person to person.  But if FE gets a good multiplayer mode, then you'll be glad you learned to play without the crutch because other players will definitely test you even more if you have been relying on reloading every time something doesn't go your way. =)

Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top

It's not about being better. Ironman mode has several effects that have nothing to do with it : you care much more for your units and champions because you know they may really die (at least, it worked in Chaos Gate), and it forces you to play more conservatively.

 

But if there is no option in the game forcing me to do it, I will have a hard time not reloading whenever one of my pokemons  champions get slain.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

I can play individual scenarios in Wesnoth without reloading within the scenario. =)

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

What about those that don't save/reload on bad defeats, but just haven't got time to play for more than 30 minutes a day?

Personally I think that to design a game to stop people wanting to save/reload is silly. Let them spoil the game for themselves if that is how they want to play it, don't try and water it down for those that don't.

 

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting DarkGaldred, reply 9

But if there is no option in the game forcing me to do it, I will have a hard time not reloading whenever one of my pokemons  champions get slain.
End of DarkGaldred's quote

Discipline yourself better.  Don't force others to play with a mechanic they might not like purely because you're unable to stop yourself from playing in a manner that you feel you shouldn't. 

That's like a guy saying non-marital sex should be illegal because he can't stop cheating on his wife, but he knows if it were illegal he'd appreciate his wife more. Nonsense.  

Play how you want and let others play how they want.  

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

It is possible to play a game that allows reloads on not reload within the scenario, just requires discipline.  And you'll find, especially in Wesnoth, that you care for your units better when you could lose them in a scenario playthrough.  You just don't appreciate units that level up unless you have a chance at losing them for good.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Kantok, the beauty of the system is if you reload all you like, you'd benefit from doing that, if you don't you benefit in a different way. The idea would be to pitch any bonus at a level where a reloader (or someone who only has short play sessions) is very definitely not punished for doing so, heck the stability question is a good one. Rather, subtle positive reinforcement to encourage players get over 'save-scumming' everything in the game. Heck, I know I do it and have done plenty of times in 0.77. Some games, like the classic Baldur's Gate 2 practically force you *to* save/reload to get past certain encounters *cough* demi-lich *cough*.

Lonemessiah, do try out Frayed Knights, I believe there is a demo out there ;) The system in that game worked great and was definitely not about watering anything down for those who don't abuse save/reload.

Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Kantok, reply 12

Quoting DarkGaldred, reply 9
But if there is no option in the game forcing me to do it, I will have a hard time not reloading whenever one of my pokemons  champions get slain.

Discipline yourself better.  Don't force others to play with a mechanic they might not like purely because you're unable to stop yourself from playing in a manner that you feel you shouldn't. 

That's like a guy saying non-marital sex should be illegal because he can't stop cheating on his wife, but he knows if it were illegal he'd appreciate his wife more. Nonsense.  

Play how you want and let others play how they want.  
End of Kantok's quote

 

Did you read the post, though? I only asked for an ironman option that you could check at startup... Like there is in some other game (Armageddon Empires, Chaos Gate, Warlords Battlecry 3, Dominions 3...). It's not about feeling I shouldn't, it's just not the same at all when you know you cannot do it.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

For a game with this many threads and objects running in a single game, the most effective deterrent to loading is loss of data. Everytime you reload you risk losing little bits of information. You might get a Sov with only one move point, a building might disappear, your gold might all be gone. Even with years spent on developing the save game function, it will never get it right 100% of the time with a game that is this complicated. This is why I would rather keep my machine running for a few hours while I sleep, than save and reload the next day. So all the pansies that reload every time a hero dies, they get theirs. 

Just food for thought.  ^_^

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting joasoze, reply 6

I only save as a backup for crashes. No reloading EVER. Still, I dont care how others play at all. Let people do what they want.
End of joasoze's quote

 

Agreed.

 

I personally never save except to leave the game, and the only 'reloading' I do is to start a game from where I left off last play session.  But not everyone is able to play with mistakes.  Some people need to play the 'perfect' game to have fun.  So let them.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top


I don't think we should get in the business of limiting the number of ways that people enjoy the game.    I agree with several of the messages above:

1. Have an "Iron Man" option for those who want to play without the save/reload ability.

2. Let everyone else play the game they want to.

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting DarkGaldred, reply 15

Did you read the post, though? I only asked for an ironman option that you could check at startup... Like there is in some other game (Armageddon Empires, Chaos Gate, Warlords Battlecry 3, Dominions 3...). It's not about feeling I shouldn't, it's just not the same at all when you know you cannot do it.
End of DarkGaldred's quote

Sure, and I'd be fine with an Ironman option that you check when setting up each game.  I played Mount and Blade that way and enjoyed in thoroughly.  

I guess I shouldn't have quoted you directly, since my point was meant more broadly to the original topic point of having a metagame system that rewards no reloading.  Mandatory save game gimmick systems are changing the game for no real purpose.  Whether I'm allowed to reload constantly or not is irrelevant if I'm punished for doing so (and call it what you want, but rewarding one behavior and not the other is no different than a punishment for the undesired behavior).  

Quoting Ruidin, reply 14
Kantok, the beauty of the system is if you reload all you like, you'd benefit from doing that, if you don't you benefit in a different way. The idea would be to pitch any bonus at a level where a reloader (or someone who only has short play sessions) is very definitely not punished for doing so, heck the stability question is a good one. Rather, subtle positive reinforcement to encourage players get over 'save-scumming' everything in the game. Heck, I know I do it and have done plenty of times in 0.77. Some games, like the classic Baldur's Gate 2 practically force you *to* save/reload to get past certain encounters *cough* demi-lich *cough*.
End of Ruidin's quote

You are punishing those that reload, no matter what you call it.  Even your terminology shows that you're idea stems from a disdain for people who like to reload often.  "Save-scumming".  

And I'm not willing to accept the stability argument.  This is a professional game studio, albeit a small one.  Stability in saving and loading is not a question and should not be gimmicked around.  It's expected.  No game should ever be released until the core basic systems are rock solid.  Particularly in a game designed for one game to last many individual play sessions. 

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

No disdain at all for people who reload here. "Save-scumming" is the commonly used phrase to describe the behaviour and it gets discussed a lot (with that phrase) on various game forums. Not sure what you mean about the stability argument, I thought I was clear enough in that it would be a point against having such a system.

It is ok for people to hate the idea, some like, some dislike, the thread is about teasing out a possible improvement for the game which is probably not going to see the light of day in the vanilla version and I'm fine with that. Seems to be quite a bit of hostility towards the idea though, so I'll leave it be and perhaps mod it in myself at some point if it is doable.