Scramble bombers, overbuffed?

A very convincing argument.

Puts me in favor of increasing the cooldown

If you went the SB route you certainly couldn't also go the heal route because you wouldn't get the amount of bombers you are talking about without quickly running out of AM and being useless.

So we have to assume you would go the SB and Micro Phasing Aura route.  So with this combo all you are adding to your fleet is dps and strike craft buff.  Is this not a justifiable amount of dps to add to the fleet if you take up a cap slot just for dps?  No imba egg powers, no crazy seige capability, no anti strike craft, no better survivability or utility, just dps, and you think it's overpowered?

How long can it even sustain that amount of squads before running out of AM anyway?  Not to mention how much AM is it likely to have at the start of a battle?

Ive tested and found 2 lvl3 skirantras can maintain 18 squads in battle. And no you don't have to go microphasing aura. You can go scramble bombers and repair cloud and simply switch if you want to build an sb or support your fleet. Like any cap ship you cant do both at the same time because of the Am consumption until you get to higher levels and Am upgrades. That doesnt mean you have to go solely dps or solely fleet support. They can be used for what you need them for. You need to kill enemy cap ships, turn repair cloud off and scramble bombers on. You need to repair your fleet or build an sb in enemy territory, switch bombers off and repair cloud on. That simple.

Saying that its not Overpowered because it doesnt allow you to use its other abilities at the same time is ridiculous. Thats like saying that the old Missile barrage wasnt overpowered because you cant move or do anything else while its casting. The am consumption is nowhere in my OP above, but if you want I can point out that according to the spreadsheet in the strategy section, skirantras restore AM at a rate of .85  and add .1 to that per level (this may be different in the current build). Which confirms that once the initial AM runs out, Skirantras can still cast the ability at least twice before its duration expires. 

While I do want to see it brought into line early game, the problem I have is that the ability is just fine later on.  Once you do have fighter and flak cover, those bombers get shredded.  I don't want to go back to the days of useless scramble bombers where they just get popped practically instantly.

I take the most issue with the ability at lvl 3. its strong as hell at 1 and 5, but level 3 is where its just ridiculous. Level 1 is somewhat manageable by other carrier caps, level 5 you should have some carriers and/or flak to deal with it, but level 3 is the in between where its just too strong too fast. Maybe start cooldown high, and lower it per level

Halcyons get their adept drone animae, costing no antimatter, and their energy aura costing no antimatter.  They get bitchslap, and all the antimatter can be used for it.  Their adept drone animae can switch between fighters and bombers.

The sova is a monster and has those missle batteries.  As I proved under the last patch, one can take out two skirantras, both alternating their heal continuously.  But noody said jack shit about this, nobody ever complained.

People say the missle barrage was nerfed, but actually it wasn't.  It is essentially the same as it always was.  I mean, I'd love to get hit with a nerf bat like that.

Vasari has been saddled from day 1 with crappy scramble bombers, and no matter how much people jerk off to and rave over its heal, I still say in most fights it isn't that great because your little frigates are getting focus-fired.  How you gonna keep alive a bunch of assailants when each one is getting focused one by one?  Yeah, the thing can heal all the ships around it, but its a waste because with focus-fire, all the ships around it don't need to be healed - only the ship getting nailed needs to be healed.  But since it's an area of affect heal, it's an anemic heal, vs. a strong focused heal.  The heal is really only good for something that can take punishment for a long time, like a starbase.

Vasari was the red-headed stepchild who got their teeth kicked in and pushed around over and over again all last patch.  I say leave them the hell alone.  The skirantra was finally made to be an okay ship, so leave it be.

Halcyons suffer build penalties and build time for their extra 1 squad per level, and telepush costs an exorbitant amount of AM. Sovas missile batteries are stationary and do not phase jump with the sova. The current skirantra can beat both these ships 1v1 or 2v2 with minimal damage taken by simply kiting and letting the bombers do all the work.

Missile barrage was nerfed by expanding the time under which its damage was dealt. A level 3 shield restore will save most of your ships under fire from missile barrage, and you can now simply move them out of range.

I think you'll all change your mind when you've got no cap ships because 12 bomber squads that you can't keep down showed up killed them, and there was nothing you could do. I think I'll just go double Skirantras until people get the point. Like I said, I get that Vasari were the underdog for so long, but I don't want them to turn into "the only race that can win" like Advent was for so long. Its called balance, and we should strive for it. I've already seen a huge increase in Vasari players in matches in both Diplomacy and Entrenchment, and guess what caps ships I always see em use in the rush. They were always meant to be an early game powerhouse, but they shouldnt be unstoppable. Its only a matter of time before people start saying "wait a second.. how the hell do I fight that?". I'd rather not have people forced to build a very specific fleet just to combat this, and still probably lose.

Today I used double skirantras and 15 assailants to kill a marza and an akkan. My opponent had 26 Javs focus firing on one of my skirantras, and i killed both cap ships AND got my skirantra to safety before they killed it.

I hear ya.  Thing is, I already have no capships.  Caps getting killed has been an issue for a while, well before the skirantra was buffed.  These days I've gone back to the uber-old school of "just build 1 colonizer cap, go out colonizing continuously with it, keep it out of battle."  I think it sucks

I doubt it will ever happen until Sins 2 (if there even is a Sins 2), but they need to address the cap vulnerability issue.

I would love to see a replay of the supposedly overbuffed scramble bombers at work. Personally I have a hard time believing that it makes that much of a difference in practice. Maybe it should cost more antimatter and/or longer recharge time at lvls 1 and 2, but it is hardly the most pressing thing they need to change right now. I'd rather have the battleships get buffed instead this ability getting "fixed".

Its a massive deal.Most skills use 3 or 4 skirantras.You need like 50 flak to suppress their bombers in any amount of time.They always get flak so you cant use fighters.With level 4 phase missiles they snipe caps before they can do a 180.I have been working on a counter and there really isnt a good one besides a massvie amount of flak.Kortul is extremely difficult to pull of cause jam weapons sucks.Dont think about lf cause soon as he sees them he will pump kanracks and once he has about 15 flak he will regardless.3 level 3 skirantras can easily tak out an upgraded sb.You dont even need carriers anymore.

While this is a fun tactic for me when I use it It is exetremely difficult to defend.Its the phase upgrades that make them rediculous.Thats likely why the level 3 area is crazy.By then people have level 4 of upgrades.I always go for them right away.Personally I think this kind of ability should be on the haly and the skirantra should get anime drones.Advent are suppose to specialize in sc.

As you saw, I came out against messing with the skirantra for now (I reserve the right to change my mind!), but I do think it makes a difference.  I played a game online a week or so after the patch came out, and some dude had 30 bombers out of two high level skirantras.  At first I couldn't believe it, but it was true.  That's a lot of bombers out of two ships, and it made a difference.

Thing is though, I think its hard to argue for nerfing it when you have the Marza that has been left as is for so long.  If you nerf it (which I'm sure the devs will do - they love nerfing vasari), vasari can always say "why did skirantra get the nerf while marza has been left alone?"

I'm for more buffs to caps, so at the moment I have to say I'm for leaving it alone.  Even when Halcyon seemed OP. I never argued for nerfing it, rather I argued for buffs to other caps to compensate.

2 Skir caps with all bombers can easily be defeated by 1 carrier cap and lrms, Even mass lf will take down carrier caps easily.  The only carrier cap thats hard to take down is with lf is the Sova with missile turrets.

Not sure why you would assume the skirantras would be alone. Scramble bombers would easily snipe a single carrier cap, assailants would murder any lfs.

This evening I played a 5v5. My immediate enemy was tec. I built my 2 skirantras and rushed with an SB and less than 10 assailants. Poor fella went a civics start, and I got my Sb under construction before his civics labs finished scuttleing for military. I had him in the noose until his nearest ally came with 3 Skirantras and destroyed my Sb and one of my skirantras with 19+ bomber squads. Bummer. At least I took out all of the TEC players buildings and 95% of his fleet before I had to run for it.

I have seen a lot of skirantra spam lately.  Personally I don't think scramble bombers really needed buffing before.  Skirantra was already a strong cap ship and did not need to be made better.  As I have said before, carrier caps have been OP in general already.

[_]-Greyfox

The problem isn't so much the carrier caps being too good, it's that the other caps haven't been brought up to the same level.  For years colonzier caps and the Marza were the only cap types worth looking at, and only recently have the carrier finally been made worthwhile as well.  I mean, how is the poor Kol, Antorak, or Rapture supposed to compete these days?

Carrier caps have once again made caps the centerpiece of a fleet as they should be.  Nerf them and it's back to coloziners who must flee at the sight of enemy LRF.

All the carrier caps have always had their place.  I am fine with having a cap variety being a good thing.  Now it is not a variety.  You say that carrier caps should be the centerpiece yet ask why don't other caps compete.  I disagree that carrier caps should be the centerpiece.  It is just as easy for caps to die(if not easier) to skirantra/bomber spam from scramble bombers than it is from LRFs.  If you have any amount of flak presence along with the skirantras then its damn hard to get rid of the bombers.  Flak sucks against bombers and fighters die a lot faster against flak than they can clear bombers.  Not to mention that cap counters are going to be the first thing targeted for death by bomber spam.

[_]-Greyfox

There has never been a veriety, at least in early game. One could argue that there will never be because there any change to either nerf carriers to buff another cap would just shift the spammed capitalship to another type. More than likely back to Advent/Vasari colonizer and TEC Marza. I agree with Kharma, they should buff the less used capitalships (especially the Kol and Kortul's jam weapons, as it might help the supposed Skinantra spam as well). Improving flak against bombers a bit might be another, better way to deal with this than seriously nerf scramble bombers.

Whos talking serious nerf, im only proposing an increased cooldown for lower levels. And not a huge increase either. just from 35 to 50 or 60. Its really level 2 scramble thats the problem in my eyes.

I mean hell I heard a ton of complaining about dual Halos, and personally thought that particular strategy was on the edge of needing some balance. Now theres a ship that can field even more early game strikecraft than the Halcyon (a significant # more) and people seem hesitant to say anything about it because its Vasari.

Variety in early game in terms of caps has always been nonexistant. However if we roll back a bunch of pathes, its significantly better than it was then. I remember a time when there were only 4 caps you'd ever see first: Akkan, Marza, Egg and Progen. Now I see Sovas, Akkan, Halos, Progens, Skirantras and Eggs. Now that we're seeing 2 and 3 cap starts theres even more variety. The early days of the previous path saw mostly double carrier cap starts, that is until people started figuring out that you could beat 2 carrier caps with just 1 and another cap (by simply pushing out some flak early). I started seeing a lot of Carrier/colonizer combos. What Im afraid of now though is that dual skirantras will force people to go dual carrier caps again just to have even a chance of fighting back. The largest part of what makes them really tough to overcome is the fact that these bomber squads can seriously outnumber any amount of fighters that an opposing carrier cap can field (particularly lvl2), and they're the toughest/deadliest bombers in the game.

I will say though that I think buffs to the other caps may help give players more of a choice for the first cap. Anyway, keep playing people. I want to see if someone can come up with a functioning counter to this strategy (cuz atm I cant think of one, and have yet to come across a single player who can beat it back). If there is not a good way to stop it, it will become evident, and people will start calling for a nerf bat (im only asking for a small one).

*** Another fun fact about scramble bombers: It works in Plasma storms!   

Just up the AM cost, then the cooldown will be useless in the early game because you quickly run out of AM, while in the late game when AM is plentiful, the skill works as intended.

Deceiver, I happened to be in that game. I had 3 skirantras bomber spamming and my ally had 2 sovas with fighters, so it was 5 carrier caps vs your 2, later 1 (you started pulling it out at ~500hp, your own fault). SB died when it had just 1 skirantra for protection... and you didn't kill "95% of his fleet". I can post that replay. You're very imaginative person with fitting name.

As JJ said, lrf spam kills caps quickly enough. Before scout nerf carrier caps were much more formidable than they are now.

People are not creative.  That is the problem.  Agent set up a post where we came up with multiple ways to beat a dual Halo rush.  Now, if necessary, I'll be glad to do it again against the vasari's Skirantra.  Honestly though, I think its fine.  Yes, it is powerful, we all agree there, but I don't think that it is invincible.  Maybe chance the CD to 45, but I wouldn't go any higher than that.  The Vasari are supposed to be good early and late game.  

I see no critical problem with it.  Just devise counters to it.  Just like any other large buff, people will complain about it being OP until counters are devised and then you will stop seeing it.  People will rush with whatever they know is most likely to work.  Once people start learning counters to it, it will fade from view.  Just give it time.  If this problem is not resolved within a couple months or so and you can convince a large portion of the community to jump on board, sure.  But for now, let's see what happens.

I did not see you in that game mecha. You were green? I dont think were talking about the same game buddy. Maybe we are i don;t know. I do know what I left the gravity well the guy had 1 sova and a couple of flaks, and would have certainly gotten chewed up if his ally hadn't come along. Whether or not we're talking about the same game, it took 2 people to stop 1 person in both games. Im seeing more and more double Skirantra rushes happening everyday, and tec and advent folks getting bulldozed without help from their friends.

Why do you assume that double skirantras doesnt come with lrf spam?

We're talking about same game, I smurfed and so did you (Belial IIRC). Im pretty sure he had 2 sovas, 1 was damaged and pulled out, but nevermind.

I use double skirantras all the time, it's not nearly as powerful as you say it is. It is good, but far from OP. Double halcyons+lf spam was good example of OP.. it forced you to spam lf or sb up (if you're vasa). Now in theory double skirantra with scram bombers may sound really good, but in reality as vasari you're most likely to be fighting

a)another vasari

b)tec- usually using a mix of hoshis, flak, lrm and probably at least 1 sova. While flak won't kill bombers it will keep them constantly weak, not able to do any serious damage with hoshis and fighters from sova around.

c) no one plays advent these days (hell has frozen), so i'll skip that

Now completely different matter is emerging skirantra spam;). 4 skirantras are mean, but it can only work if you already have econ advantage. Crew upgrades cost fortune at those levels, and just 20 kanraks can melt skirantra pretty fast.

Bottom line, I think scramble bombers is very good but also situational. It is devastating if your opponent is unprepared... just like ogrovs. Actually, I treat scram bombers as kind of vasa SB buster.

ps: double skirantras were popular long before scram bombers buff

Belial is not one of my smurfs. All my smurfs take names of creatures and bosses from 'Myth:The Fallen Lords' and its sequels. (If you're curious Wiki it and you'll probably discover some :D)

You're right that Dual skirantras have been popular for awhile, but only as a way to combat opposing double carrier caps or SB rush (which it still does both well). Vasari are dominating MP now and I think this is one of the main reasons why (and I think that because 90% of vasari players are using 2 skirantras). Advent players are getting rolled and TEC players are being put on permanent defense, and eventually getting rolled. The patches are still young, and maybe I was being premature about my findings. But so far as I've seen, more and more double skirantra (or more, ive seen 3, 4 and 5 skirantras) abuse is becoming common.

(Balor then? Something demonic starting with B;))

IMO TEC is more popular than vasa atm. Early game skilled TEC fleets are a pain for vasa, especially on maps where TEC can econ up at start. Late game belongs to vasa, as usual. Funny enough, advent is underdog now.

There's more variety in cap starts now than at least in 8 months (since i started playing). Dual carriers at least take a little more skill than old and boring 1 colony cap+lrf. You can't expect every cap to be viable start, some should be pure support.

I used skirantra spam only once so far, but it looks like it works only vs much less skilled opponent or when you have a lot of time/money. Otherwise, poor things will just get FFed.