Volt_Cruelerz Volt_Cruelerz

The Disproportion of Sins

The Disproportion of Sins

Not a Complaint, Just an Observation

Well...  One day I got bored after completely destroying an AI, so I started measuring things.

Now, first off, I knew that the diameter of the earth and other like-sized planets was about 12700 kilometers.  I then proceeded to observe that a planet was just over four tactical squares in diameter.  This made me realize that each individual square must be about 3000 kilometers across.

Next, I looked at the size of an Egg, the largest of the capitals.  By estimating its size, it appears to be around 1500 kilometers in length and 500 in width.  Now, it is the largest of the caps, so you normally wouldn't think anything of it except that if you look very closely at the top of it, you can see skyscrapers jutting out from it.  Each of these has strip lights, suggesting windows.  Now, since the Vasari are of a comparable size to humans, you can estimate the size of it to be about 200 kilometers in length and 75 in width.  Now a population of about 10,000 would work on the smaller version, but the to-scale version would have to have a crew in the hundreds of thousands.

[Relatively] Moderate Difference.

Next I measured an Akkan and again looked at the strip lights.  It too is about 1500 kilometers in length via the grid system, though only about 200 in width.  Then I looked at the strip lights.  On the akkan, they were even larger!  You could see individual windows on its port side in multiple rows representing individual decks.  That is all well and good except that to be 1500 kilometers in length, each window would have to be a few kilometers long.  By estimating the length of the Akkan via the strip lights, I came up with only three kilometers.  This is the size of ship that would hold 5-6000 crewmen.  Not to mention that it is a comparable size to the Egg when the texture in fact suggests that it is a fraction of the size.

Big Difference.

I then proceeded to look at the fighters of the Akkan against itself.  This confirmed my earlier belief that each small window was an individual 5-6 foot window as I looked at the size of the cockpits.  I then proceeded to fly a fighter up to a planet and using a bug, flew it "through" it (technically, just inside the white circle so it was halfway in the planet) and discovered another problem.  Each fighter could comfortably cover a small state like Vermont, or Massachusetts.  This means a hundred kilometers in length as opposed to about 10-15 meters.

Huge Difference.

Then I looked at the size difference between the stars, gas giants, and planets.  Once again, completely disproportionate.  Gas giants are twice the size of planets when in reality they are 12 times larger.  Stars appear to only be four times the size of planets when they are really more than a thousand times larger.

Gigantic Difference.

 

Now, I'm not saying that this is a discussion of a particular problem or complaint as this is just an observation.  I'm not saying it should be fixed as I'm sure this system works best with gameplay.  I just figured I'd say what I found when I got bored...

69,537 views 55 replies
Reply #26 Top

Right. But the ships certainly shouldn't need triple the crew of a HC. So I figure that it's including all aboard.

 

:fox:

Reply #27 Top

Well, unless its including all on the colonizer since it does put all those people to use...  As for the HC, it only counts the necessary people...

Reply #28 Top

your forgetting that ships like the HC and such have to carry ordinance.....That takes up alot of room (while in sins that doesnt matter because there is no resupply) it makes sense that a colony ship with no defensive abilities other then shields would have much more room for a crew compared to a HC. Not only that but the HC is only 25 personell short of the Colony Frigate. Not that big of a differance.

As for the scout........I always thought the crew of a Scout were lucky bastards, the ship itself would be much more roomier but still, the Scout is sending back real time info back to you and your "HQ" where ever that may be (imagine what kindof computers it have on board and the energy output to send that info via realtime in the vastness of space) as well (after the upgrades) it carries multiple sensor probe and timed explosives big enough to do the damage it does ingame.

When it comes to crew size the sova confuses me...........its no wheres the diameter of a Kol yet its only 500 personell short have having a matching crew compliment. I would think with all the launching bays and ordinance chambers for all the bombers ordinance that the crew would be more like 1000 maybe 1500

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 27
Well, unless its including all on the colonizer since it does put all those people to use...  As for the HC, it only counts the necessary people...
If they aren't neccesary, why are they there in the first place? That'd also degrade ship performance, and be wasteful of resources, particularly on a combat ship.
Quoting Allegiance86, reply 28
your forgetting that ships like the HC and such have to carry ordinance.....That takes up alot of room (while in sins that doesnt matter because there is no resupply) it makes sense that a colony ship with no defensive abilities other then shields would have much more room for a crew compared to a HC.
My point hinges on the fact that there's less ordinance and sophisticated systems. A colony ship would doubtless be easier to maintain and crew, so would require a much smaller crew than an HC.

 

:fox:

Reply #30 Top

Maybe your not understanding how Naval units work.............there is a minimum crew capacity that is needed to operate the vessel successfully and then there is a maximum crew capacity where the ship might take on refugees or fleeing troops from a planet that was abandoned. Thats what Volt means by neccessary.

Are you forgetting that a colony ship drops PEOPLE onto planets? That means theyd be manned by a larger number then others. Look at the Akkan. Its crewed by twice as many as some of the other ships. Why? because it drops PEOPLE to the planet. (while in game it magically gains that lost crew back) That is the reason the Colony ship has a bigger crew then a HC which carries weapons to kill other ships not people to populate planets...........just look at it as the Colony ships ordinance isnt big bombs that go BOOM but people.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Allegiance86, reply 30
Are you forgetting that a colony ship drops PEOPLE onto planets? That means theyd be manned by a larger number then others. Look at the Akkan. Its crewed by twice as many as some of the other ships. Why? because it drops PEOPLE to the planet. (while in game it magically gains that lost crew back)
That... is the very point I'm arguing.

 

:fox:

Reply #32 Top

then im confused because on one hand your saying the Colony ship shouldnt need that many crew............now your saying they do. The 500 isnt how many they need to operate the Engine.....or the Helm or any other duty onboard the ship. Its how many the ship can actually CARRY, including the operational crew.

Reply #33 Top

My assumption is that the crew numbers include everybody beneficial to any operation the ship is designed to undertake. Anybody more being dropped off at the nearest planet to be reassigned or to make love, pay taxes, and generally be less 'in the line of fire'.

 

:fox:

Reply #34 Top

Im pretty sure the crew #'s on the manuels are stating what size a ship can carry at full capacity. Which include operational staff and whoever maybe extra for whatever reason............in the colony ships case its the actual colonists the colony ship is built to carry and deploy on ships.

Reply #35 Top

Right. I assumed the opposite partly because most ships would probably drop them off ASAP so they can get back to work. Partly because the ships would be absolutely tiny. Even if the Exodus fleet had used only Jarrasuls, a planet of one billion or so would need some 65,000+ ships. (I suspect less population would make them unable to sustain the war agains the TEC. Most staying planetside when in a warzone.)

 

:fox:

Reply #36 Top

Vasari are able to Clone themselves...........which can bulk their numbers up. As for the Colony ship its sole purpose is to Colonize planets..........theres nothing else for it to do.

Reply #37 Top

You guys do realize that just by looking at the Egg while zoomed in, you can easily see how it could carry half a million Vasari on it?

Reply #38 Top

Think of it this way, yes there are skyscapers on the top and thats probly the only living space. it needs functional areas. Also maybe vasari culture is different maybe each tall building is a single home jus to prove how extravagant they are.

Reply #39 Top

doubtful...  Its called the Jarrasul Evacuator.  Its made for emergencies.  In other words, extravagance isn't the name of the game.  Also, check the Vasari History and Culture thread.  We have used logic to determine how they would actually live...

And why on earth would the largest starship in the known universe only have that tiny area devoted to living if it is designed to evacuate entire planets!?!  That may be the highest priced real-estate, but not the only place you could live.  I guarantee that you could live within the ship itself.  Sure, not near the frontal maw or near the engines, but anywhere else, you would be just fine.  The Jarrasul is one massive beast of a ship.  Its not a Kol or Marza that is armed to the teeth.  It is just armed heavily enough to survive light combat and fulfill its purpose...

Reply #40 Top

True but there has to be more areas that would be "restricted" such as those linked to its abilites. dont want ppl sucked up into the planet drainer(sorry i dont know what else to call it) do we

Reply #41 Top
The Sins manual states crew capacities that aren't very high. Unless one of the devs comes in here and states otherwise, we should accept those crew complements as canon. I doubt the Evacuator is capable of hauling an entire planet's worth of population with only a trained crew of 15,000. Not even the Vasari are that advanced.
Reply #42 Top

That would be the frontal maw.  Check the manual...  As far as the others go, the Nano Bomb and Grav Bombs are fired from the underside and then everywhere else is good...  So...

Reply #43 Top

Those areas would be Battlestations and operational areas. Which Im pretty sure everyone onboard would have somekindof duty to fullfill onboard the Jarasul.  But the majority of the ship would be like a giant city. To me the SkyScrapers wouldnt just be living quarters but Observation Decks, StrikeCraft Control Towers, And the Bridge. As theyll have the best location to oversee everything thats going on within site of the ship.

Reply #44 Top

Well then i guess your right either that or the things hollow and should be called jurrasul waste a space

Reply #45 Top

yeah just look at the length and width of a novalith projectile and compare it to the planetary scale and GEEZ it's just me or the planet didn't shaped like a donut with a hole after got kissed by the novalith?

Reply #46 Top

yeah i just love watching a planet take a few novalith canon shots, i always build like 6 of them so i can kill atleast three planets economy at once.

Reply #47 Top

I'm pretty sure the crew numbers listed are "full combat strength" for the ship in question. I have no doubts they can be run on less (skeleton crew), and that they can most likely accomodate passengers and/or extra crew.

As for the Vasari ships? Look closely, even the Kortul has little tiny windows and what not on the insides of their wings, and the Vasari colony frigates have small "skyscrapers" on them too. I have the feeling that most of the Vasari capital ships carry plenty of Vasari citizens onboard... especially the Evacuator.

It's really not as hard as you think to cram shitloads of people into small spaces and organize them on shifts to save bunk space. If you've ever been inside a ship - space is tight, and on some military vessels bunks are shared.

What I don't understand... is that a Kodiak takes 475 crew... to fire three cannons and make the ship go. Wtf? You'd think they'd have better automation than that. SINS ships seem woefully underarmed... they have only a few weapons banks, and they are very specific - with no secondary weapons involved (say, putting a flakk gun or two on a HC). Even the amount of crew many modern day naval vessels require boggles my mind a bit... what the hell do that many people do on a ship? If you can route controls to a bridge, why do you even need crew back there (except for mechanics to fix things, and gunners)?

-Itharus

Reply #48 Top

No matter how much automation you puton a ship, you still need enlisted personel to go in and fix the holes blown into your ship.

Reply #49 Top

lets see, theres

 repair crews (fixing damaged parts of the ship and SC)

 flight deck crew (for moving SC around safely)

Armament crew (incharge of ordinance for the ship itself and the SC)

messhall crew (troops gotta eat)

engineering crew (gotta keep the ship moving and in one piece)

security detail crew (to keep the peace and to engage boarding parties)

Flight Control Crew (gotta control who comes and goes)

Medical Crew (keeping the troops healthy)

Navigators (someones gotta pilot those ships)

Intel ( someone has to be able to absorb info and relay it successfully)

Communitcations (keeping the ship intouch with the other ships)

StrikeCraft Pilots (engaging enemy vessels in skirmishes and percision assaults)

Command Crew (someones gotta tell everyone else what to do)

Considering that there would be shifts so that the ship is running tip top shape 24/7 and that during battles those crew off duty would take up battlestations at their assigned weapons emplacements. The ship would have an enormous crew. The ship itself would be under three shifts each 8 hours long. This is why these ships are so massive and need so many crew to man them. Technically considering how big the Kol, the Kortul the Radiance is. Theyd need MUCH more crew then what they have listed. Considering a Nuclear Powered Super Carrier of today, carries upwards to 6000 crew. And these Capital ships alot bigger then a Super Carrier. The crew compliment might not need to be 6000 but it definitely needs to be alot bigger then what some of the Capital crews are listed for. Like Volt said the Jarrasul would be listed in the millions for it to be accurate.

Reply #50 Top

Yeah...  It must be remembered that the Vasari do not colonize planets.  They merely control the inhabitants from orbit.  That means that their populations would be concentrated on their capital ships, and especially the Jarrasul.  That ship is so large, it would be unimaginable if you saw it up close!  That thing is the size Alaska/Texas.  That is enough space to carry millions and millions on board.

Though I would like to note that when the crew's jobs were listed earlier, it must be remembered that every single one of those can be filled by robots...  Even ship repair as the ships surely contain millions of gallons of nanites...